Roger's post illustrates the roll that distribution plays in the equation. In the UK, it appears that Kodak film is priced competitively with Ilford. Here in Canada, it is the same. But in the USA?
Who knows whether the source of this information is accurate, or limited to Japan only, or related only to a single distribution source.
I'll say it again.
If you want to use Kodak products then be well prepared to pay for them — there will be more price rises in time (I expect Fuji to raise prices in Q4). Same with Ilford. If all that sounds very unappealing, move to digital. Oh, you didn't know that is where the money is for these companies? With a persistently shrinking global market and low demand, there certainly is not money in film — I strongly suspect there is a huge financial loss in providing for film. Might be best to cut the business of using Kodak as a whipping boy and confront reality.
Please, please, please, won't you Chinese film manufacturers solve your QC problems & sell film in the USA?
Triple digit prices are unreasonable.
How many triple digit price increases (from ANY product, not just film or photography) have you swallowed?
How many products do you know of thrived after triple digit price increases?
How many other film producers other than Kodak have rammed triple digit price increases down their customer's throats?
I cringe every time I buy Chinese products. Not mainly because of quality control problems, which are more common with their goods, but because of trade and labor practices. Of course, being Dutch, I will buy it if it equals other film and is priced right. I just bought 20 rolls of Chinese GP3 120 2016 dated and really think it's a nice film. If there is profit in making film and the Chinese know it then you'll see more Chinese films. That means over time they'll also solve QC issues and their films will constantly improve. I also agree that this rumor isn't fact yet either. JW
Here's a free list (this is for Australia, no doubt the USA and other countries have similar)
- Electricity
- Rates
- Petrol (gas to you...)
- Car registration/TPI
- Traffic fines
- Tertiary education fees
- Private health insurance
Many more still...
All go up and up and up...
If you cannot afford Kodak price increases, don't buy their film. It's really that simple. Prices will continue to rise over time for everything. I don't think a triple digit increase is unreasonable, but it could well be a marker to something more dramatic coming e.g. discontinuation of a product or several products.
Here's a free list (this is for Australia, no doubt the USA and other countries have similar)
- Electricity
- Rates
- Petrol (gas to you...)
- Car registration/TPI
- Traffic fines
- Tertiary education fees
- Private health insurance
Many more still...
All go up and up and up...
If you cannot afford Kodak price increases, don't buy their film. It's really that simple. Prices will continue to rise over time for everything. I don't think a triple digit increase is unreasonable, but it could well be a marker to something more dramatic coming e.g. discontinuation of a product or several products.
It is interesting to note that most of the items you list above are either government run or sole sourced utilities.
There's nothing wrong with Chinese labor practices that we westerners didnt go through during our own economic development.
I've been working on and off in China for the past decade and the advances made to working conditions here simply boggle the mind. It has been YEARS since I have seen anything even remotely like a sweatshop here. I support industrial production and so am in Chinese plants hundreds of times per year. Every plant I go to is far more modern than anything I've been to in the US. A few plants are laggards in this area but most are not.
Wages here are low but so is the cost of living. A Chinese worker who made a US style union wage would be living like an absolute king here.
That said, wages are going up so fast that inflation is a serious problem in China.
If the quality is there (and that's a big IF), I would buy from China without hesitation.
Ratty,
I have talked to a few people who have business ties in China and they say the same as you. It seems some of our manufactures would rather suck profits and not modernize. A lot of that has to do with upper management and shareholders setting the rules, but they just seem to have a hard time investing back into the company for some odd reason. Oh, maybe that odd reason is that it leaves much more money for them to play with? The Chinese are getting much better at manufacturing of tools and other hard goods, but my main worry is edible food goods coming in from China. Here, in the U.S. we have regulations and still have some problems, but over there I have no idea what they can do or can't do with their food. My family policy is absolutely no food products from China, but then we don't know if some U.S. company isn't buying raw food goods and packaging it here either. We'll know when something bad happens like it did with the dog food and many dogs died. Still, this GP3 film is really very good and I don't have to eat it. JW
Good news!!
for Ilford.
There's nothing wrong with Chinese labor practices that we westerners didnt go through during our own economic development.
I've been working on and off in China for the past decade and the advances made to working conditions here simply boggle the mind. It has been YEARS since I have seen anything even remotely like a sweatshop here. I support industrial production and so am in Chinese plants hundreds of times per year. Every plant I go to is far more modern than anything I've been to in the US. A few plants are laggards in this area but most are not.
Wages here are low but so is the cost of living. A Chinese worker who made a US style union wage would be living like an absolute king here.
That said, wages are going up so fast that inflation is a serious problem in China.
If the quality is there (and that's a big IF), I would buy from China without hesitation.
There is an old contractor's adage: If you really don't want the job, submit an outrageous bid.
It seems more and more that these film producers don't want the job.
Not really, Ilford in Japan is ridicusly expensive already. Kodak was cheaper than Fuji.
To give you some idea of how expensive Ilford is:
Kodak Tmax 100 120 pro pack: 1920yen
Fuji Acros 100 120 pro pack: 2100yen
Ilford Delta 100 120 x 5: 3495yen
Even with the price increases it will still be much cheaper than Ilford. I'm surprised Ilford manages to sell any film in Japan at the prices they charge.
At B&H:
Kodak:
50 sheets 4x5 TXP - $91.99 ($183.98 / 100 sheets, $1.84 per sheet)
50 sheets TMY-2 - $109.95 ($219.90 / 100 sheets, $2.20 per sheet)
Ilford:
100 sheets HP5+ $122.95, $1.23 per sheet
$1.23 versus $2.20. That's quite a difference. Even compared to TXP (a closer comparison, but Ilford no longer makes Delta 400 in sheets, which would be closer to TMY-2) it's a big difference.
Roll films are still more competitive.
Not really, Ilford in Japan is ridicusly expensive already. Kodak was cheaper than Fuji.
To give you some idea of how expensive Ilford is:
Kodak Tmax 100 120 pro pack: 1920yen
Fuji Acros 100 120 pro pack: 2100yen
Ilford Delta 100 120 x 5: 3495yen
Even with the price increases it will still be much cheaper than Ilford. I'm surprised Ilford manages to sell any film in Japan at the prices they charge.
This could be the reason Kodak spun off its film division during bankruptcy proceedings to Kodak Alaris. They didn't see it as a long term profit center compared to the non-film divisions they kept. All of this is not a good sign for film users. The higher film prices go, the more people that will switch to digital. Then less buyers will raise film prices again in an endless spiral that leads where?
My guess the market still has more shaking out to do. Higher prices; less manufacturers. The range of products will continue to contract within each of the remaining manufacturers.
They probably don't.
Thanks that is interesting my UK shop does not stock the Delta five pack but five singles is only a little more than a GBP more than the Acros five pack which is at 21.23GBP.
We have it hot today at 17C max (63F).
Absolutely the food situation is far worse than the manufactured goods one is. You are wise to try to limit your exposure but for sure some Chinese food is slipping through. You just can't find it all.
Another thing to consider on the manufacturing side is that the vast majority of Chinese run plants are working for western companies. Very very few Chinese companies develop products, make them, market them outside of China and sell them. The majority of plants by far are working for a US or EU company. They simply build to order and the western company drives down the price paid to them so that worker safety, the environment, and quality are left with table scraps at best.
We have not sold pro-packs for over 10 years.
Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :
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