Kodak yellow HC-110 in round bottle - 2022 - Sino Promise, Made in China

pentaxuser · Jun 23, 2022

OK Matt so where in this chain of convoluted events in the history of HC110's manufacture did Alan Johnson's change come in and has that change now been discontinued?

"Nope,
If you look at the msds, Cat 660 1777 is identical to Cat 501 0541, which is the old formula type based on a sulfur dioxide adduct of an organic. The "new version" contained potassium sulfite and had a different catalog number."

Your last sentence in#25 suggests that SinoPromise has restored the HC110's longevity if it was based on the creation of a sulfur dioxide adduct that existed in the original HC110

Thanks

pentauser

markjwyatt · Jun 23, 2022

{Moderator's Note: copied from the other thread}

pentaxuser said:
I remain confused if anyone cares to look at the thread on the new yellow bottle that HC110 now comes in

The more I am told the more confused I am

pentaxuser

Yes, It looks lighter in color than the German made version, and does not explicitly list "sulfur dioxide" in the content as the old German made version does.

@MattKing believes that they have some process involved that produces sulfur dioxide, and that the Sino version is more similar to the old German version than the intermediate version available the last few years.

From my picture, HC110 (made in Germany) contains

1,2 benzenediol (120-80-9)
diethanolamine (111-42-2)
diethyleneglycol (111-46-6)
ethylanolamine (141-43-5)
hydroquinone (123-31-9)
sulfur dioxide (7446-09-5)

From @Eddy Lin 's picture, the new Sino Promise HC110 contains

1,2 benzenediol (120-80-9)
diethanolamine (111-42-2)
diethyleneglycol (111-46-6)
ethylanolamine (141-43-5)
hydroquinone (123-31-9)

No sulfur dioxide listed on the label, but it is listed in the MSDS (see bottom of this post)

From Freestyle, the intermediate Alaris HC110 MSDS (rearranged, concentration ranges removed),

1,2-Benzenediol (120-80-9) SAME
Diethanolamine (111-42-2) SAME
Diethylene glycol (111-46-6) SAME
Potassium sulphite (10117-38-1)
Sodium tetraborate, pentahydrate (12179-04-3)
3 4-hydroxymethyl-4-methyl-1-phenyl-3-pyrazolidinone (13047-13-7)
Potassium hydroxide (1310-58-3)
Hydroquinone (123-31-9) SAME

No sulfur dioxide. No ethylanolamine (141-43-5).

The Freestyle version certainly looks different than the German and Sino Promise (which look very similar, see below).

MYSTERY SOLVED: The Sino Promise MSDS states

2-(methylamino)ethanol, Compound (21049-70-7) With Sulphur Dioxide

The sulfur dioxide is in this ingredient (which is 20-30% of the developer), and apparently is not listed on the label.

Conclusion (as @MattKing indicated) - the Sino Promise HC110 looks to be at least very similar to the old (Tetenal) German made HC110.

Alan Johnson · Jun 23, 2022

In The Film Developing Cookbook 2020 p74-76 ,Bill Troop spent two pages discussing HC-110, we cannot re-hash all that here.
Really you need that background.
However he does conclude that HC-110 was reformulated in 2019. This is the version commonly referred to as "HC-110 new"
The version referred to in this thread , according to the msds, has the same formula as the old long lasting formula that preceded the reformulation. As I said before, we don't yet [Jun 22] know where it is to be distributed.

MattKing · Jun 23, 2022

You also need to be careful basing conclusions on MSDS, because:
1) different jurisdictions have different criteria about what is required to be in an MSDS, so there is often a variety of MSDS available for any one product; and
2) in most cases, there is no requirement that relatively benign components be listed in an MSDS, so there will be differences there as well.

markjwyatt · Jun 23, 2022

MattKing said:
You also need to be careful basing conclusions on MSDS, because:
1) different jurisdictions have different criteria about what is required to be in an MSDS, so there is often a variety of MSDS available for any one product; and
2) in most cases, there is no requirement that relatively benign components be listed in an MSDS, so there will be differences there as well.

Agreed. I am only using them as clues. Each manufacturer gets to interpret the regulations as they wish, plus they can list things under different names (though the CAS Number helps a lot), etc. For this exercise, I used US MSDS forms to try and keep it consistent. Also for complex organic mixtures, there can be multiple pathways to the same basic formulation, and often different starting ingredients can be used, yet a similar (rarely exactly the same) formulation can be arrived at.

john_s · Jun 23, 2022

It's good to see so many people using a pyro developer.

markjwyatt · Jun 23, 2022

john_s said:
It's good to see so many people using a pyro developer.

I do have a pint kit of Formulary Wimberley WD2D+ Pyro. I intend to try it with [expired 2004] Agfapan APX100 (120).

Juan Valdenebro · Jun 25, 2022

To have new stuff that's close to the old thing would be great news.
I got a bottle of the old syrup and I have recently tested dilutions from 1+15 to 1+99 and it's the most amazing developer I've used for HP5+.
Even for direct sunlight it is superior to Perceptol: grain is unexpectedly small, tight, sharp, and equalized. (1+99).
And 1+31 is optimal for overcast: it doesn't look at all like what I had seen from HP5+... The upswept curve wakes HP5+ up from its native low contrast and makes it a new film.
All this at EI320.
I don't know why it's said 1+31 (dil. B) imitates D-76 1+1... Perhaps it was true with much older emulsion technology?
I found HC-110 gives different tone and different grain too, compared to D-76.
I had seen sharp HP5+ without grain: PyroHD and Xtol, but in HC-110 it's very sharp and with amazing beautiful grain at the same time. Dil. B doesn't dilute grain in any way: I thought it would...
A sweet surprise.

Juan Valdenebro · Jun 25, 2022

One more thing:
I've done street at EI640 for close to two decades, and D-76 handles that well. HC-110 doesn't: I decided to go back from my 35 at f/11, to my 28 at f/8 (nearly identical DOF) just to enjoy the pleasure of such an open, clean tone, full of separation from shadows to midtones to highlights.
I also tried Tri-X in it, and I prefer D-76 for Tri-X.

guangong · Jun 25, 2022

We really miss Photo Engineer. He could have given a simple answer.

MattKing · Jun 25, 2022

guangong said:
We really miss Photo Engineer. He could have given a simple answer.

Actually, as Eastman Kodak no longer has anything to do with Kodak branded photo-chemicals, and manufacture has been moved to China, I doubt that Photo Engineer's contacts would have been able to help him on this.

cjbecker · Jun 25, 2022

MattKing said:
Actually, as Eastman Kodak no longer has anything to do with Kodak branded photo-chemicals, and manufacture has been moved to China, I doubt that Photo Engineer's contacts would have been able to help him on this.

Its a real bummer knowing eastman kodak has nothing too do with the chemical side anymore. Once i finish my bottle of hc110, it will be the last one i purchase. Either move to ilford hc or choose another non kodak developer

MattKing · Jun 25, 2022

cjbecker said:
Its a real bummer knowing eastman kodak has nothing too do with the chemical side anymore. Once i finish my bottle of hc110, it will be the last one i purchase. Either move to ilford hc or choose another non kodak developer

I remain loyal, at least partially due to the knowledge that so many of Sino Promise's employees in that part of their business are former Kodak and Kodak Alaris employees.

takilmaboxer · Jun 25, 2022

My photo activity has become so erratic that I would love to have access to a very long lasting, one shot developer...like the original HC110. I use LPD for just that reason, I dislike Rodinol, and FG7 is ancient history.

BMbikerider · Jun 25, 2022

Check to see if there is an expiry date. Sino Promise have not made anything for Kodak for at least a year. They apparently ran into cash difficulties and would only make items if they were paid up front first.

Juan Valdenebro · Jun 25, 2022

MattKing said:
I remain loyal, at least partially due to the knowledge that so many of Sino Promise's employees in that part of their business are former Kodak and Kodak Alaris employees.

I agree. As long as their products work well, I'm glad to be helped by people who know about chemicals deeply and long ago.

gone · Jun 25, 2022

takilmaboxer said:
I dislike Rodinol, and FG7 is ancient history.

That's how I felt too, until I tried Foma 100 in Rodinal. Beautiful stuff, at least in 35mm. The dilution factor can make a huge difference w/ small format films. F76 Plus is another developer that I use one shot, it gives negs that have very smooth tonality.

markjwyatt · Jun 25, 2022

MattKing said:
I remain loyal, at least partially due to the knowledge that so many of Sino Promise's employees in that part of their business are former Kodak and Kodak Alaris emplo

Juan Valdenebro said:

I agree. As long as their products work well, I'm glad to be helped by people who know about chemicals deeply and long ago.

Click to expand...

I might join that in the future (If Sino Promise comes through long term), but would not for the intermediate HC110 that I would be forced to spend $40+ on and will not last long enough for me to use all of it or likely even 1/2 of it. If they offered a much smaller package, I might have considered it. I do not need to consider it now because I was fortunate to buy some of the last long lasting HC110, and have enough to last quite a while still.

MattKing · Jun 25, 2022

BMbikerider said:
Check to see if there is an expiry date. Sino Promise have not made anything for Kodak for at least a year. They apparently ran into cash difficulties and would only make items if they were paid up front first.

As far as I can tell, this is the first HC-110 that Sino Promise has ever made.
The manufacture went from Tetenal, to an unidentified US manufacturer, to this new product.
And for clarity, while Sino Promise was making some product for Kodak Alaris, they weren't making anything for Eastman Kodak. And now they are making it for sale by themselves, as they are "Kodak" for colour paper and photo chemicals.

BMbikerider · Jun 26, 2022

All the main UK outlets that sell Kodak RA4 paper and Ektacolour RA4 Developer have not had any stock for several months. If Sino Promise is back making them, so far they have not filtered though to here. I am on my last 1/2 box of the developer and had to change to Fuji paper (Not as good in my opinion). One outlet has not had any Ektacolor 'Starter' chemical for approaching 30 months1

Actually an acquaintance who has a business as a small scale bespoke hand printer, who also used the Kodak RA developer has now changed to Fuji. This was originally out of desperation at not being able to get his usual supplies of developer, but he found it was just as stable and long lived as Kodak when diluted, also in these times when cost is all important realised quite soon it was less than half price that the Kodak equivalent.

Like me he still would like the Kodak paper back again.

MattKing · Jun 26, 2022

It is a problem worldwide. They have been decimated by the effects of the pandemic - difficulties in obtaining source materials, difficulties in staffing and production, difficulties in getting manufactured product from China to markets throughout the world.

McDiesel · Jun 26, 2022

So, what's the conclusion? Is it possible to order the "newest" HC-110 which is supposedly just as long lasting as the original, and from whom?

MattKing · Jun 26, 2022

McDiesel said:
So, what's the conclusion? Is it possible to order the "newest" HC-110 which is supposedly just as long lasting as the original, and from whom?

Who knows when it will arrive in the USA/Canada/Europe.
That will depend on all the shipping problems being at least partially resolved, and all the various distributors getting access to those shipments.
At least they appear to have gone back to the old catalogue number, so if you specify that catalogue number and say you won't accept any of the "Made in the USA" version, , you have at least a good chance of getting what you are looking for.

mshchem · Jun 26, 2022

It will need to pass a critical test for me. Back in the late 70's when my buddies and I started using HC-110, we were shocked at how much it smelled, diluted mind you, like our music teacher's breath.

This is potentially a good sign, just so this stuff can survive the seemingly endless shipping delays. Is color paper and chemistry next??

MattKing · Jun 26, 2022

Remember, the OP is reporting from Taiwan.

Kodak yellow HC-110 in round bottle - 2022 - Sino Promise, Made in China

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