Kodak XTOL trade concern announcment

[wyofilm]

I will see what Sino Promise can deliver. I think the market for black and white chemistry in China, is enough to justify continuing to make Kodak branded products.

Important point, and I hope that you are right. How big is Shanghai film? Isn't that the film manufacturer of China? Lucky is gone?

 

[MattKing]

What does Sino care about EK, when they have the entire/most of c-print market, and NONE of the film market.

They have the Kodak photo chemical market.
They are a distributor, who now have exclusive worldwide rights to one of the if not the best known brand in the world. They also have inroads into all the distribution channels for photographically associated brands like Epson.
As important as the US market is, it probably is less important than the totality of the rest of the world, and Kodak Alaris just sold them infrastructure that has at least some presence in that world.

 

[Serg Lavrenchuk]

My biggest concern is that Flexicolor does not experience the same quality problems as the BW chemistry has been having.

I am afraid they might have. I personally (this 2020 summer) already had Kodak LORR c41 developer parc C oxidized in the bottle that cost us 2 weeks and few chemistry changes in 2 machines to track. The date was super fresh like 3 months. Bought it from an official dealer. I decided that problem was due to wrong storage/shipping in summer. After that we ordered Tetenal and stick to it as they revived production after being at the other side.

Now reading this I do not exclude that it might have been not that simple.

Also, I have seen my service guy with square eyes coming to us from another city with words "what is going there at Kodak, maybe our market gets not original Kodak? just was starting ra4 machine after BLX / DEV cartridges put the opposite ways. Marking was put the wrong way on the cartridges".

These might be not connected to the subj. Shouldn't as I thought before. But why not now?

 

[wyofilm]

They have the Kodak photo chemical market.

Yes, and now they keep profitable products and eliminate unprofitable. I think that you would agree RA-4 paper and chemistry dwarfs any other product that they acquired from KA.

They are a distributor, who now have exclusive worldwide rights to one of the if not the best known brand in the world.

Definitely looking in the review mirror, imho. Nonetheless, I assume 'Kodak' will be plastered on their RA-4 paper and chem.

They also have inroads into all the distribution channels for photographically associated brands like Epson

This only supports my position. Sino has markets much larger than that of Xtol and the like to worry about.

As important as the US market is, it probably is less important than the totality of the rest of the world, and Kodak Alaris just sold them infrastructure that has at least some presence in that world.

Is the rest of the world itchin' to develop B&W film in Xtol? No! Sino is going to market color printing from digital files to the world.

Sino Promise took the jewell from KA when it purchased the paper/chems for RA-4. At present, they have no other business presence in film photography beyond making relatively low volume chems for C41 process and B&W film development. I can't see that Sino cares one bit about film photography. Why would they? They have no other interests in this field. I guess as long as B&W chems and C41 chems turn a profit and isn't a pain in their ass, they might keep manufacturing and selling such items. Once one of those conditions fails to be met, adios Xtol and similar products.

 

[pentaxuser]

Mmm... so SinoPromise lets the Kodak chemicals market wither on the vine and Pemberstone (Ilford Photo) may want to asset strip? Is Fuji and Lomography the bright spots left on the horizon? But wait, Fuji has also discontinued several b&w films in recent years and recently in the face of a strengthening(allegedly) C41 market has discontinued its Fuji Pro400H and Lomography's ability to sell sand the the Bedouins does not strike me as maybe the best skill to be known for. That kind of ability conjures up snake-oil selling in my mind but I suppose it depends on how far selling sand to people with too much of it already strays into affecting honesty

So can any of them be trusted? Perhaps the "doomsters" can get together, reach a consensus on the whole film and analogue film market and give us a prediction of what is likely to be the whole future from best case bright spots to utter despondency

I have tried to extract the middle ground on the boom to gloom spectrum but can't find any so need help.

pentaxuser

 

[Donald Qualls]

Middle ground is, I have large format equipment, so I'll be able to do wet plate collodion as long as people still nitrate cellulose (and in theory, I know how to do that). Glass and black velvet aren't going anywhere, and silver nitrate is easier/safer to make than collodion.

 

[pentaxuser]

Middle ground is, I have large format equipment, so I'll be able to do wet plate collodion as long as people still nitrate cellulose (and in theory, I know how to do that). Glass and black velvet aren't going anywhere, and silver nitrate is easier/safer to make than collodion.

Thanks Donald but what you describe would seem to stretch my definition of middle ground in terms of the best to worst case scenarios for the analogue market If you'll forgive me for injecting a bit of whimsy your description of film's future seems more like the survival of the hardy and resourceful mountain men after a nuclear or deadly pandemic

pentaxuser

 

[Donald Qualls]

your description of film's future seems more like the survival of the hardy and resourceful mountain men after a nuclear or deadly pandemic.

And that is the middle ground -- between nothing bad happening, and total extinction.

 

[wyofilm]

Mmm... so SinoPromise lets the Kodak chemicals market wither on the vine and Pemberstone (Ilford Photo) may want to asset strip? Is Fuji and Lomography the bright spots left on the horizon? But wait, Fuji has also discontinued several b&w films in recent years and recently in the face of a strengthening(allegedly) C41 market has discontinued its Fuji Pro400H and Lomography's ability to sell sand the the Bedouins does not strike me as maybe the best skill to be known for. That kind of ability conjures up snake-oil selling in my mind but I suppose it depends on how far selling sand to people with too much of it already strays into affecting honesty

So can any of them be trusted? Perhaps the "doomsters" can get together, reach a consensus on the whole film and analogue film market and give us a prediction of what is likely to be the whole future from best case bright spots to utter despondency

I have tried to extract the middle ground on the boom to gloom spectrum but can't find any so need help.

pentaxuser

I don't know what you mean by Ilford asset striping. Is there something they are doing now that I am not aware of? I personally think that Ilford is doing the best of all the 'traditional' firms of branding and marketing their products. For example, they have a significant youtube presence to highlight their products and teach new photographers. Go to Ilfords website: it is vibrant and informative. Adox looks like they are possibly thinking about starting more marketing. They might have a bigger marketing presence in Europe and I wouldn't know about it. Fujifilm is an enigma for sure.

As far as I can tell KA has never effectively marketed film beyond saying look we have two new films (which was a good product release). My 'doomster' opinion relates to the impossibility of the three headed Kodak. Structurally, it makes no sense from the perspective of actively supporting a film market (stills). 1. EK makes film but can't market Kodak branded film. 2. KA sells Kodak branded film, but has no film ecosystem to support it. 3. Sino Promise wants to dominate the market of printing digital files; they have no other role in film except for some newly acquired chem. They care about RA-4 and RA-4 paper. I doubt seriously that they will care about other products they have acquired. Why? Because they are orphan products for them. They have no stake in film. EK could fold tomorrow (God forbid!) and it wouldn't alter Sino's position one bit.

In the film world, there is a lot to be optimistic about. Innovative products abound by small, independent entrepreneurs. Ilford and Adox both have publicly reported about the vibrant traditional photography market. Both are releasing new products.

Snake oil salesman or not, Lomography hustles.

 

[pentaxuser]

And that is the middle ground -- between nothing bad happening, and total extinction.

I wonder if this indicates a difference in the UK v US mindset on the definition of "middle ground" What I had in mind was simply that maybe there is a likely outcome that is neither as bad as some posts are suggesting but may not be as rosy as others in the past seemed to indicate

pentaxuser

 

[takilmaboxer]

My thanks to all of you for this thread. I am not interested in buying Kodak branded chemicals if they are made in China. We are fortunate enough to have BW photo chemicals available from a variety of small producers, and that's where my money will go in the future.

 

[pentaxuser]

Yes wyofilm my post was not specifically related to your position alone which accept and you have confirmed is considerably nuanced with different companies in your view occupying different positions on the spectrum. My post was trying to reflect what appears to be a thread trend where there are posts that in combination harbour a very gloomy outlook on all matters and motives "photographic "

Sometimes there is a tendency for Photrio threads to degrade into the "Are you talking to me" scene from "Taxidriver"

pentaxuser

 

[wyofilm]

Yes wyofilm my post was not specifically related to your position alone which accept and you have confirmed is considerably nuanced with different companies in your view occupying different positions on the spectrum. My post was trying to reflect what appears to be a thread trend where there are posts that in combination harbour a very gloomy outlook on all matters and motives "photographic "

Sometimes there is a tendency for Photrio threads to degrade into the "Are you talking to me" scene from "Taxidriver"

pentaxuser

Pentaxuser,
My apologies for thinking it is ALL about me!

For the record, I am not gloomy about the traditional photographic industry, with the exception that Sino will continue with lines of products that we want. In this latter regard, there are so many good alternatives out there that I can't even feel gloomy about this.

 

[Sirius Glass]

All I am reading here is speculation, nothing based on facts or even inside information. No information is no information. Without information no conclusions can be drawn.

 

[wyofilm]

All I am reading here is speculation, nothing based on facts or even inside information. No information is no information. Without information no conclusions can be drawn.

1. Yes, that is what forums are for.
2. My conclusion/opinions are based on data - I've outlined them. The data are incomplete for sure, but that is life. My crystal ball tells me Sino will drop some or all of the chemistry unrelated to RA-4 that they acquired from KA because it doesn't make sense to continue with it. It's just a partially informed opinion.

 

[Sirius Glass]

1. Yes, that is what forums are for.
2. My conclusion/opinions are based on data - I've outlined them. The data are incomplete for sure, but that is life. My crystal ball tells me Sino will drop some or all of the chemistry unrelated to RA-4 that they acquired from KA because it doesn't make sense to continue with it. It's just a partially informed opinion.

So would one be better off using a crystal ball or crystal meth?

 

[wyofilm]

So would one be better off using a crystal ball or crystal meth?

I don't know, but I'm sure YOU would prefer to use phenidone crystals!

 

[NB23]

100% verified and accurate information below:

kodak sucks hairy balls.

 

[Sirius Glass]

100% verified and accurate information below:

kodak sucks hairy balls.

Please show the documentation that proves your statement or be honest enough to say that you are frustrated with the world as it is.

 

[NB23]

Please show the documentation that proves your statement or be honest enough to say that you are frustrated with the world as it is.

What is your reason for not believing that kodak sucks hairy balls?

Or, at least, understand that all their ex-customers are frustrated for having been savagely let down?

we may come across as being let down (which we certainly have been, by a company that has been acting lousily for decades), but you come across as an Ostrich hiding your head in the sand.

 

[Sirius Glass]

What is your reason for not believing that kodak sucks hairy balls?

Or, at least, understand that all their ex-customers are frustrated for having been savagely let down?

we maybe come across as being let down (which we certainly have been, by a company that in the end has been acting lousily), but you come across as an Ostrich hiding your head in the sand.

No, I see things as they are. Kodak is still in business in multiple forms. Their products are available. Every company has its problems but Kodak is one of the few that always backs it products. Man up and stop crying in your beer to which your hairy balls get dipped.

 

[Sirius Glass]

PS your beer would taste better if you stopped dipping your hairy balls in them.

 

[takilmaboxer]

My position, irrespective of whether you choose crank or phenidone, is that hirsute testicularform products are being made by other suppliers, who perhaps deserve consideration in our purchasing decisions. I've been happy with Ilford, Clayton, the Formulary, to name a few. But of course they don't make RA4/C41 products.
And to those of you outside the USA, please be aware that customer service has not been important amongst major American corporations for a long time. It would appear from this thread that Sino is following that business model. I mean, PLEASE, a Trade Concern??!? How about "we screwed up and promise to make it better."

 

[john_s]

yes, the odd term "trade Concern" sounds suggestive that the concern is not about the customers.

 

[MattKing]

To me the “trade concern” wording seems sort of like a language/translation issue.

Me too.
As if the transition to Sino Promise meant that an entirely new PR department became involved.