Kodak will no longer produce any colour reversal still films

Aristophanes · Mar 3, 2012

bowie said:
You are right. But not only the lack of demand is a problem. Cost is a problem. Kodak is too big for the market. Market is smaller than in the past, BUT THERE IS AND STILL WILL BE THE MARKET. I am 100% sure that kodachrome and ektachrome would be profitable, if costs were fitted into smaller company.

Kodachrome was in a league unto itself due to the complex uniqueness of processing and the cost. It required substantially more volume than it was selling to stay economically viable.

There is too much production capacity, too many companies, and too few customers. The market is something like 95% smaller now, and still shrinking. Sadly, there has been no consolidating force to draw the disparate elements of film production, processing, and camera production back together as they were when film was in its infancy as a mass consumer item with one supplier (Kodak). Mass production requires mass consumption, as George Eastman knew back in the day. Kodak was not only the dominant film manufacturer, it was the dominant manufacturer of cameras and for a very long time, processing and printing. It's my opinion that is where analog roll and cartridge has to go to survive. Only then can it achieve the lowest overhead and the most flexibility at reaching its market, allowing film to stay affordable enough for a semblance of the consumption necessary. Film doesn't scale too well as an industrially supplied product. A niche market cannot survive with too many suppliers. Wrong product for that approach.

kb3lms · Mar 3, 2012

gsucher said:
However, I think reversal film can be unsurpassed when it comes to color saturation. I don't know the scientific details, but a few years ago I bought a few rolls of Kodachrome after 20 years since using it last and took some shots of Coney Island and showed them to my wife on a light table, who was absolutely amazed at the color and realism. She has been exclusively digital since 2002 and displays on a 24" screen. I took that as high praise.

Don't get me wrong, because I agree with exactly what you say about reversal films. My point being that if digital shines anywhere, this is it. As far as I am concerned, digital doesn't hold a candle to any decent negative film, b/w or color. But for the reasons that I believe many of the "pros" used reversal films years ago, and I do not profess to be an expert here, a digital process covers those needs with less cost and higher productivity.

Does digi equal the quality of analog reversal? In my opinion, no. But then again, I'm not in this to try and make a living. For me it's enjoyment and that means process and results I like. Productivity is meaningless to me but to people trying to make a living in the photography business, it's not.

Slides are beautiful. Ektachrome 200 was my favorite back in the 80s and I have many trays of slides to prove it. But nowadays I have too many other photographic interests already!

RattyMouse · Mar 3, 2012

Aristophanes said:
Kodachrome was in a league unto itself due to the complex uniqueness of processing and the cost. It required substantially more volume than it was selling to stay economically viable.

There is too much production capacity, too many companies, and too few customers. The market is something like 95% smaller now, and still shrinking. Sadly, there has been no consolidating force to draw the disparate elements of film production, processing, and camera production back together as they were when film was in its infancy as a mass consumer item with one supplier (Kodak). Mass production requires mass consumption, as George Eastman knew back in the day. Kodak was not only the dominant film manufacturer, it was the dominant manufacturer of cameras and for a very long time, processing and printing. It's my opinion that is where analog roll and cartridge has to go to survive. Only then can it achieve the lowest overhead and the most flexibility at reaching its market, allowing film to stay affordable enough for a semblance of the consumption necessary. Film doesn't scale too well as an industrially supplied product. A niche market cannot survive with too many suppliers. Wrong product for that approach.

When Kodak goes under, Fujifilm will have a lot more customers, helping keep their plant or plants running more efficiently.

TexasLangGenius · Mar 3, 2012

Brian C. Miller said:
Texas, you're lucky you don't shoot 8x10. Kodak E100G is gone in the US. Maybe there's a box or two overseas, but in the US it's gone. Some New Yorker went and nabbed all of it, hoarding it all up. I went down to my local store, Glazer's, and all of the boxes were gone, and they told me someone in New York city bought them, and was buying everything in the US. Sure, that New Yorker may have been one of those auction houses that goes through a lot of 8x10 chrome, but it still stank.

I bought the last two boxes of Kodak 8x10 100VS in Seattle, though. Eh, well, smoke 'em while ya got 'em!

Just ordered enough Ektachrome in 35mm, 120 and Super 8 to last me a while. I hope E-6 16mm film (and 16mm film and Super 8) will still be around by the time I can afford to get my Bolex fixed.

wy2l · Mar 3, 2012

Why discontinue color reversal film now, rather than earlier or latter?

I think I figured it out... methinks EK was about to manufacture a new batch, but could not pay their suppliers.

zsas · Mar 3, 2012

If your theory was true they wd have ended the same stock in motion picture film. I think ending the still line will allow for internal savings (ie maybe a few less staff), just my $0.02

Aristophanes · Mar 3, 2012

wy2l said:
Why discontinue color reversal film now, rather than earlier or latter?

I think I figured it out... methinks EK was about to manufacture a new batch, but could not pay their suppliers.

That's actually an insightful theory. The controller in Ch. 11 may not be allowing inventory accumulation, so if they over-produce and then inventory to slice and package for another day, all without a detailed knowledge of where demand will be, then the product sits on the liability side of the balance sheet. In Ch. 11, that's a no-no, and probably triggered the decision. It would explain the motion picture film continuance which can go out the door in higher volume not waiting for B&H and Adorama to place an order.

Good catch.

Plate Voltage · Mar 3, 2012

Aristophanes said:
That's actually an insightful theory. The controller in Ch. 11 may not be allowing inventory accumulation, so if they over-produce and then inventory to slice and package for another day, all without a detailed knowledge of where demand will be, then the product sits on the liability side of the balance sheet. In Ch. 11, that's a no-no, and probably triggered the decision. It would explain the motion picture film continuance which can go out the door in higher volume not waiting for B&H and Adorama to place an order.

Good catch.

If true, all the still photo films stand a good chance of being discontinued by Kodak as soon as their current inventory is depleted. Kodak can't make film in small on demand batches so they have to periodically do a run of a given film, hold it in inventory and cut,package, and sell it from there. If this is true and their Chapter 11 controller's flat out refused to allow them to make inventory to sell from, it breaks that whole manufacture-then sell from inventory process, and then it's a matter of time before existing supplies of Ektar, Portra, the black and white stuff etc. run low and discontinuation notices appear. I sincerely hope that this is not the case.

fotch · Mar 3, 2012

I don't think so, the controller's goal is to see all creditors get paid. Since the sell film and they have to make it first. If the theory is to not take any chances, they they would of pulled the plug and shut the electric off, amoung other things. This is more than just an accounting problem. JMHO

michaelbsc · Mar 3, 2012

fotch said:
I don't think so, the controller's goal is to see all creditors get paid. Since the sell film and they have to make it first. If the theory is to not take any chances, they they would of pulled the plug and shut the electric off, amoung other things. This is more than just an accounting problem. JMHO

Having been a creditor in two bankruptcies I can assure you that the first people who get paid will be the bankruptcy lawyers.

fotch · Mar 3, 2012

michaelbsc said:
Having been a creditor in two bankruptcies I can assure you that the first people who get paid will be the bankruptcy lawyers.

: :devil:

MattKing · Mar 4, 2012

michaelbsc said:
Having been a creditor in two bankruptcies I can assure you that the first people who get paid will be the bankruptcy lawyers.

Actually, it is the bankruptcy trustees who get paid first - and they are most likely accountants.

alanrockwood · Mar 4, 2012

MattKing said:
Actually, it is the bankruptcy trustees who get paid first - and they are most likely accountants.

Actually, I believe the government is first in line, if there are any taxes owing. Other priority classes stand in line behind the government.

ajuk · Mar 4, 2012

I read that slide film was only between 1 & 2% of Kodak's film sales, anybody know what the figure is for Fuji?

michaelbsc · Mar 4, 2012

alanrockwood said:
Actually, I believe the government is first in line, if there are any taxes owing. Other priority classes stand in line behind the government.

All I know is that as a creditor I came pretty close to "last" in the real pecking order despite all the BS I kept getting in the mail about how my interest were being looked after.

Unsecured creditors have just about zero leverage.

alanrockwood · Mar 4, 2012

michaelbsc said:
All I know is that as a creditor I came pretty close to "last" in the real pecking order despite all the BS I kept getting in the mail about how my interest were being looked after.

Unsecured creditors have just about zero leverage.

Yes, unsecured creditors stand pretty far back in line.

Shareholders are last in line. It is extremely rare for them to get anything in a bankruptcy. (I think the last major bankruptcy where the shareholders got more than zero was Texaco, back in the 1980s, and that was a special case.)

Ahead of them are the unsecured creditors. Sometimes they might get a little. Sometimes not. There are several classes of unsecured creditors with different priority levels. For example, suppliers who advanced credit to the company have lower priority than persons who hold unsecured bonds.

Secured creditors are ahead of unsecured creditors.

Employees who are owed pay come ahead of secured creditors, and so forth.

There is something called the absolute priority rule which says that a person higher in the priority list must be made whole (i.e. get paid 100% of what is owed to them) before anyone in the next lower level gets a penny. I believe the "absolute" part of the absolute priority rule is not necessarily absolute. There are a few rare exceptions, and then things start to get a little murky. Nevertheless, it is my understanding that if you assume that the absolute priority rule is going to be followed you won't be far from wrong.

By the way, I am giving an opinion based on my understanding. I am not a attorney, so don't take my opinions as legal advice.

tnabbott · Mar 6, 2012

Kodak discontinues all slide films

DISCONTINUATION NOTICE
March 1, 2012
Due to a steady decrease in sales and customer usage, combined with highly complex product formulation and manufacturing processes, Kodak is discontinuing three EKTACHROME (color reversal) Films:

KODAK PROFESSIONAL EKTACHROME E100G Film
KODAK PROFESSIONAL EKTACHROME E100VS Film
KODAK PROFESSIONAL ELITE Chrome Extra Color 100 Film

We estimate that, based on current sales pace, supplies of these films are expected to be available in the market for the next six to nine months; however, inventories may run out before then, depending on demand.

This does not affect KODAK PROFESSIONAL Color Negative Films or KODAK PROFESSIONAL Black and White Films which remain a viable part of the KODAK PROFESSIONAL Film portfolio.

Please note: E-6 Chemicals will also continue to be available.

CGW · Mar 6, 2012

tnabbott said:
DISCONTINUATION NOTICE
March 1, 2012
Due to a steady decrease in sales and customer usage, combined with highly complex product formulation and manufacturing processes, Kodak is discontinuing three EKTACHROME (color reversal) Films:

KODAK PROFESSIONAL EKTACHROME E100G Film
KODAK PROFESSIONAL EKTACHROME E100VS Film
KODAK PROFESSIONAL ELITE Chrome Extra Color 100 Film

We estimate that, based on current sales pace, supplies of these films are expected to be available in the market for the next six to nine months; however, inventories may run out before then, depending on demand.

This does not affect KODAK PROFESSIONAL Color Negative Films or KODAK PROFESSIONAL Black and White Films which remain a viable part of the KODAK PROFESSIONAL Film portfolio.

Please note: E-6 Chemicals will also continue to be available.

Thanks. Check out the bar fight threads already up and running on this from last week.

Jaime Marin · Mar 6, 2012

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

rawhead · Mar 6, 2012

Good to hear about the E-6 chems... at least.

tnabbott · Mar 7, 2012

rawhead said:
Good to hear about the E-6 chems... at least.

That will end too, probably in 18 months or so I would think.

wblynch · Mar 7, 2012

Oh God, another film killed, another 20 rolls on their way here

I missed the Kodachrome thing at least I can try the ugly step-sister before she's gone too.

Roger Cole · Mar 7, 2012

Why do we need yet another thread on this?

I'm bullish on the future of black and white, moderately realistically optimistic that color neg and print from neg materials will be available for some time yet, but transparencies....eh, as someone said in another thread, "smoke 'em while you got 'em." We'll still be able to get Fuji for a while longer. I'm getting a few more rolls of E100G while I can.

tnabbott · Mar 7, 2012

Roger Cole said:
Why do we need yet another thread on this?

Um, it is the Analogue Photography User Group...

I guess one of two producers of slide film calling it quits is not important.

Bob-D659 · Mar 7, 2012

Roger meant there are already a couple of threads here on this subject, you were a little late(5 days) to the party.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Kodak will no longer produce any colour reversal still films

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency