Kodak Warning + Later Clarification

[Tel]

And I just stocked up on 4x5 sheets of Portra, though my reasons are mostly selfish!

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

This fundamentally misunderstands the value of distributors and the complexity of B2B commerce in the real world.

Manufacturers and vendors use distributors to avoid things that are not their core business. It's infinitely easier for Kodak in Rochester to focus on making film and stuffing it into containers than it is to make film AND manage a global sales and distribution network servicing 30,000+ retailers across 50+ countries, each with incredibly heterogeneous regulatory requirements, payment terms, and cultural norms.

Unfortunately it's not as simple as "just take orders and ship it out" when you're talking about getting product into every major city globally.

If direct ecommerce were truly superior to distributors, Coca-Cola would have done it decades ago with their near infinite resources and market domination.

Coca-Cola isn't a good example because the dealers/distributors are also bottlers that make Coke products locally. Alaris does not produce film. But your point about distributors in general is valid.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

I confess, I have become rather conservative over the past years. Yesterday I brought a parcel to the post office, in it an Arriflex 16 St that I’ve just serviced. Thinking that the owner might put the camera in a vitrine would make me sick. Each film camera or projector I revive gives me hope that somebody is going to make a worthy movie. From a tripod.

It’s the little things I miss, all 16-mm. film available perforated on both sides for the many cameras that deserve it. Think of a Victor 3/4/5 or a Mitchell 16 Professional. The one is lightweight and well portable, the other is still the Queen of the 16-mm. cameras—on sticks (weight). Then the 50-foot spools and fresh Kodak loaded 25-foot Double-Eight magazines. 35-mm. camera stocks P perforated for all the old machines with a crank on them.

Yeah, behind that all must be the will to propagate cellulose triacetate and PETP with a light sensitive slurry on it. It’s to talk to the young (I am 63) so that they hear it from the epicentre of film manufacturing (it began with Reichenbach and Eastman in 1889 [unlawfully]), that they’re worth more than only pressing buttons. Heaven, young strong people idling trough life with electronics around them is so sad. Kodak, make and let them do what’s film. Cut that digital trinkets out. A Kodak Reflex Special, open but loaded with white leader, for the world to see what you’re about, Ciné-Kodak Specials on fluid heads, the mirror reflex finder explained. Twelve perfectly restored Kodak Electric 8 cameras in a line at the CES would certainly make an impression. And projection! No Kodak booth without a popcorn-free (not smelling) pretty little cinema. Why not new, improved Kodak film splicers? Substantial things!

I love the smell of movie film.

 

[Cholentpot]

don't know there, but here those deals were on really bad films and processing. The 14-15y.o. me in the 90s was super happy about that, but looking at those prints now makes phoenix I look like velvia.
So yeah, we're comparing price of portra and gold, two very high standard films, with some third party obscure products...

3m and Ferannia was the most likely culprit. Not awful stuff, Fuji also had loads of film repackaged. I don't know how much Kodak did of that. I never even heard of Porta back in the day. The vast vast majority shot whatever was on the shelf. Film speed was an afterthought. If there wasn't enough light you used the flash. You shot either Fuji or Kodak and that was it. You could also shoot the grocery brand but like my bubblegum chewing hairsprayed older teenage cousin would say 'That fuji stuff is yuck SNAP I'm gonna stick with Kodak SNAP POP it just looks delish'

I remember my mother (the family photographer) just picking up Kodak or Fuji whatever and firing away in the SLR. When BW400CN came out it was a huge deal. Special trip to the park for photos!

 

[thinkbrown]

Oh well, my birthday is in 4 days anyway so I just bought $500 worth of Kodak E-100 in MF & LF to help them out..

So like 4 sheets?

 

[retina_restoration]

I told you so - a whole lot of hand-wringing for nothing.
That said, shame on CNN for that piece of misleading, sensationalist garbage.

 

[Trail Images]

So like 4 sheets?

.....the kind salesperson said it was 3 sheets to the wind & 2 rolls. Timing is everything. I was due for purchases for the last two months anyway.....

 

[Agulliver]

3m and Ferannia was the most likely culprit. Not awful stuff, Fuji also had loads of film repackaged. I don't know how much Kodak did of that. I never even heard of Porta back in the day. The vast vast majority shot whatever was on the shelf. Film speed was an afterthought. If there wasn't enough light you used the flash. You shot either Fuji or Kodak and that was it. You could also shoot the grocery brand but like my bubblegum chewing hairsprayed older teenage cousin would say 'That fuji stuff is yuck SNAP I'm gonna stick with Kodak SNAP POP it just looks delish'

I remember my mother (the family photographer) just picking up Kodak or Fuji whatever and firing away in the SLR. When BW400CN came out it was a huge deal. Special trip to the park for photos!

Not sure about the USA because I never used any "buy D&P, get a free film" apart from Seattle Filmworks who were rather different to the mainstream....but in the UK and Europe, certainly a lot of those "free" films were Ferrania under another name. That's how Ferrania became the world's most popular film. And it wasn't bad at all, but equally was not up to the products offered by Kodak, Agfa and Fuji. Ferrania were churning out so much film the unit cost was tiny. Which is how it ended up rebadged by chain stores, camera shops, labs and so on. Towards the end, Poundland in England were selling Ferrania Solaris 200 for £1 a pop. Truprint also used Ferrania as their "free film". when I lived in the USA, Wal-Mart certainly offered super cheap Polaroid branded film which was "Made in Germany" and looked a LOT like Agfa.

Fuji certainly also offered Superia 200 and 400 for rebranding, and Agfa offered Vista (before Afga Photo Vista which was rebadged Fuji). But these were priced a bit higher than Ferrania.

But yes, there was a lot that was artificial about those super low prices...labs offering a super cheap film free with D&P to keep your custom. Buying a roll of actual branded film wasn't so much cheaper than today...the difference is that today we don't have those crazy deals.

Kodak are now the only people manufacturing mainstream colour negative film....be it for cinema, ameteur or pro use. Harman and others might well get there, but for the moment if you want a good quality CN film that's dependable, it was manufactured by Kodak...whatever it says on the box (because it might well say FujiFilm or Lomography!).

 

[Cholentpot]

Not sure about the USA because I never used any "buy D&P, get a free film" apart from Seattle Filmworks who were rather different to the mainstream....but in the UK and Europe, certainly a lot of those "free" films were Ferrania under another name. That's how Ferrania became the world's most popular film. And it wasn't bad at all, but equally was not up to the products offered by Kodak, Agfa and Fuji. Ferrania were churning out so much film the unit cost was tiny. Which is how it ended up rebadged by chain stores, camera shops, labs and so on. Towards the end, Poundland in England were selling Ferrania Solaris 200 for £1 a pop. Truprint also used Ferrania as their "free film". when I lived in the USA, Wal-Mart certainly offered super cheap Polaroid branded film which was "Made in Germany" and looked a LOT like Agfa.

Fuji certainly also offered Superia 200 and 400 for rebranding, and Agfa offered Vista (before Afga Photo Vista which was rebadged Fuji). But these were priced a bit higher than Ferrania.

But yes, there was a lot that was artificial about those super low prices...labs offering a super cheap film free with D&P to keep your custom. Buying a roll of actual branded film wasn't so much cheaper than today...the difference is that today we don't have those crazy deals.

Kodak are now the only people manufacturing mainstream colour negative film....be it for cinema, ameteur or pro use. Harman and others might well get there, but for the moment if you want a good quality CN film that's dependable, it was manufactured by Kodak...whatever it says on the box (because it might well say FujiFilm or Lomography!).

We forget that the only way to take a photo was with film. There was so much film out there so many manufacturers, so many different kinds of it. It's like imagining that the standard battery cell that's been around forever gets replaced fully in a few years. Every item that used AA or AAA or C or whatever go obsolete overnight, finding batteries becomes a challenge and most people never buy a battery again. 20 years later some people go on about how there were dozens and dozens of brands and kinds of batteries.

Smaller local chains always had killer deals on film. Disposable cameras came in and they would sell packs of them for peanuts. They'd use the lab and film as a bellywasher to get people in the store. Go shopping and pick up your film as you leave. Who shops for an hour? Well, the lab took exactly an hour so you'd browse a little longer and maybe buy a little more stuff. Go to car, throw negatives in glove box, sort through the 4x3 photos, trash the stuff that didn't expose or focus and repeat the next week. If you had a really good roll you'd visit the pharmacy or a dedicated lab. For everything else you just go to Jimbo's Grocerama.

 

[Scott J.]

My hope is that Kodak getting past this hurdle in 2026 will allow them to press "reset" and start offering some new products.

At the top of my list would be: 1) the Kodak-branded E6 chemistry that they claimed was going to be released in 2024...

Honestly, that would be a huge risk.

And lo and behold, I just checked Cinestill's website to look at sheet film offerings and saw this: https://cinestillfilm.com/collectio...cts/color-reversal-e6-slide-processing-kit-5l.

This is a big deal!

 

[koraks]

And lo and behold, I just checked Cinestill's website to look at sheet film offerings and saw this: https://cinestillfilm.com/collectio...cts/color-reversal-e6-slide-processing-kit-5l.

Yes, it's reported elsewhere on Photrio as well. Note that the chemistry is made by PhotoSys and distributed by CineStill. Kodak licenses the name. It's possible they supplied a recipe and maybe (very maybe) did one or two tests (but I really doubt that).

 

[MattKing]

Yes, it's reported elsewhere on Photrio as well. Note that the chemistry is made by PhotoSys and distributed by CineStill. Kodak licenses the name. It's possible they supplied a recipe and maybe (very maybe) did one or two tests (but I really doubt that).

I expect they and Kodak Alaris at least cooperated with a fair bit of testing. Eastman Kodak are, after all, receiving licensing revenue, and the quality of the end user result is highly dependent on the quality of the processing.
I don't know whether Eastman Kodak is making control strips for E6, but they do make them for C41.

 

[Scott J.]

Yes, it's reported elsewhere on Photrio as well. Note that the chemistry is made by PhotoSys and distributed by CineStill. Kodak licenses the name. It's possible they supplied a recipe and maybe (very maybe) did one or two tests (but I really doubt that).

I exchanged a couple emails with Alan Fischer at Photo Systems, Inc. back in late 2023 when Kodak announced the licensing agreement with PSI. I wrote to ask if the E6 kits were going to be 6/7-bath, which he confirmed they were. His timeline at that point was for a mid-2024 release, but things obviously turned out to be a little more complicated. Regardless, this is a welcome development.

I see that Cinestill has the individual, lab-sized E6 chemicals listed on their website, as well (not yet available). The price point for the 5-liter kits is, to the best of my knowledge, the best there currently is for E6 chemistry (effectively half the price of the Jobo kits).

 

[koraks]

Eastman Kodak are, after all, receiving licensing revenue, and the quality of the end user result is highly dependent on the quality of the processing.

That's true, but I think we have several examples of equipment and, well, 'stuff' out there on the market bearing the Kodak name, but not necessarily the Kodak quality level.

The price point for the 5-liter kits is, to the best of my knowledge, the best there currently is for E6 chemistry (effectively half the price of the Jobo kits).

Definitely, and especially in the US. I also remarked on the price point in the other thread on this. I think lots of people will be absolutely thrilled by this, and understandably so.

 

[MattKing]

Thread title updated to reflect later clarifications.
We were tempted to use "The Sky is Falling" instead, but resisted the temptation.

 

[koraks]

We were tempted to use "The Sky is Falling" instead, but resisted the temptation.

"The big scare of 2025" was another option, but didn't quite make it. I think as a team we're satisfied by the final compromise.
With a nod to @warden for suggesting to bring the title more in line with the real situation.

 

[cmacd123]

3m and Ferannia was the most likely culprit. Not awful stuff, Fuji also had loads of film repackaged. I don't know how much Kodak did of that. I never even heard of Porta back in the day. The vast vast majority shot whatever was on the shelf.

I remember my mother (the family photographer) just picking up Kodak or Fuji whatever and firing away in the SLR. When BW400CN came out it was a huge deal. Special trip to the park for photos!

One of the anti-trust restrictions on Kodak, like not selling Kodachrome with processing included in the states, was for many years they could not sell private label film.

3M/Ferrania, Fuji, Sakura/Konica, and AGFA were the private label films I would buy. (the
the way the date was in the box, as well as the shape of the the plastic can made it easy to identify)

before Portra there was Vericolor Professional, and Ektacolor. often at ASA 160

 

[MattKing]

One of the anti-trust restrictions on Kodak, like not selling Kodachrome with processing included in the states, was for many years they could not sell private label film.

Technically, they could.
But they couldn't sell the same film as the stuff branded as Kodak. So they didn't bother custom making film that was different than their own.

 

[Steven Lee]

This fundamentally misunderstands the value of distributors and the complexity of B2B commerce in the real world.

Manufacturers and vendors use distributors to avoid things that are not their core business. It's infinitely easier for Kodak in Rochester to focus on making film and stuffing it into containers than it is to make film AND manage a global sales and distribution network servicing 30,000+ retailers across 50+ countries, each with incredibly heterogeneous regulatory requirements, payment terms, and cultural norms.

Unfortunately it's not as simple as "just take orders and ship it out" when you're talking about getting product into every major city globally.

Chuck was correct. The distribution business got fundamentally rebuilt with e-commerce. There are WHOLESALE online marketplaces now where you can list, for example, 5 million boxes of Portra and have distributors bid on them. This is how many US-designed, but chineese-manufactured goods get distributed. You can start a 3-person company and launch a physical product line and have it distributed all over the world.

So yes, in 2025 is it pretty much as simple as "take an order and ship it out". Just one order. For millions of rolls. Kodak doesn't need Alaris.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I remember Kodachrome for sale with processing mailers here in the US. But it was simpler just to have the owner of the tiny country store drop it off in person once a week down in the city an hour away, then pick up the slides the next week. Certain things he never ran out of were gallons of rotgut jug wine, rifle and shotgun ammo, blue jeans, and Kodachrome plus Kodak Gold. You could also count on bottles of orange soda and chocolate soda being in the cooler alongside 7Up and Coke. Oh, fishing lures too.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Transitioning to a direct web sales model would probably be a nightmare for Kodak, and involve far more staff than they currently need for office support and shipping. And even in high volume mode, there could be nightmares in how the product gets handled beyond their control. That kind of scenario is really what killed off Cibachrome in the US. It's not so simple. But as it is, they seem legally committed to Alaris, which is really the party which needs to be leveraged into modernizing the distribution.

 

[retina_restoration]

Thread title updated to reflect later clarifications.
We were tempted to use "The Sky is Falling" instead, but resisted the temptation.

Or perhaps "Kodak Doombaits Photrio LOLOLOL!"

 

[chuckroast]

Transitioning to a direct web sales model would probably be a nightmare for Kodak, and involve far more staff than they currently need for office support and shipping. And even in high volume mode, there could be nightmares in how the product gets handled beyond their control. That kind of scenario is really what killed off Cibachrome in the US. It's not so simple. But as it is, they seem legally committed to Alaris, which is really the party which needs to be leveraged into modernizing the distribution.

But they don't have to go to direct sales. They can use existing eCommerce middlemen to be their 1st tier distribution system and they will sell direct or via last mile retailer.

The only reason to maintain a direct distribution and sales force is if your product is so specific it needs high touch in the sales process.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Well, that mould was cast long ago; Fujifilm USA still uses it too. Good sales reps are a key to success; lazy or bad ones are a quick road to failure. But the marriage to Alaris has margin connotations tied to a pension fund settlement, so is an extra layer of complication and overhead. I don't have a high opinion of divorce attorneys; but ....

 

[Scott J.]

But they don't have to go to direct sales. They can use existing eCommerce middlemen to be their 1st tier distribution system and they will sell direct or via last mile retailer.

The only reason to maintain a direct distribution and sales force is if your product is so specific it needs high touch in the sales process.

Part of me wonders if that's essentially what's going on with Fuji. A 120 Pro Pack of Velvia 50 at B&H is ~75 USD, but they rarely have it in stock. Meanwhile, you can get the same product pretty much any time from the "FujiFilm Store" on Amazon, but it's 145 USD. This raises the question: Is the "FujiFilm Store" on Amazon actually run by Fujifilm, and if so, is Fuji simply prioritizing sales through Amazon because they can sell it at a higher markup?