Kodak Vision 3

[cerber0s]

I’d like to try Vision 3! Just because it’s that much cheaper than anything else. I can get a 100ft roll to bulk load for the price of six rolls of Portra. I’m thinking about getting a 36 frame roll just to try it.

I don’t have room in my designated “film gadget cabinet” to add five bottles of ECN-2 developer, which is why I’m considering the Cinestill 2 bath ECN-2 developer, I’ve been very pleased with the C41 version.

Would you:
1. Try the Cinestill ECN-2 kit?

2. Develop in C41 developer and rub the remjet layer off afterwards.

3. Soak the film in some remjet removal solution and then develop in either C41 or ECN-2 developer?

 

[radialMelt]

I've had good luck using the ECN-2 prewash to remove 95% of the remjet. I then develop in standard C-41. After fixing and washing, I use some Pec Pad wipes to wipe off whatever remjet remains on the film base (not emulsion side). I've been quite happy with the results.

 

[Sandro.m]

My experience with ECN-2 has been frustrating, because negative tend to be flat and need a lot of post to correct colors. In fact this developmemt is used in movies, because the negative is printed on an other film for theater projection, increasing contrast and balancing colors.
Not to mention that the ECN process is more complex ( you also need what between the baths).
Since I develop Vision 3 (50D and 250D) in C41 I’m happy with results and process simplicity and speed.
Regarding the rem-jet removal, I use a dedicated bath I buy from Bellini, and the beginning of the process. End of the process, before the stabilizer bath, I open the tank, extract the films and clean the negative back with a microfiber cloth. This is the only annoying phase, it’s the price I pay to use an excellent film at 2€/roll. I can give more details if you are interested.

 

[cmacd123]

several folks offer bulk loaded Vision stocks.
and yes, the stock was designed originally to have low enough contrast that it could be printed twice (positive and then Negative) on other intermediate stock, { https://www.kodak.com/en/motion/pro...lms/vision-color-intermediate-2242-3242-5242/ }and viewed as a fourth Generation print on 2383/3383 Print film.

 

[blee1996]

If you just want to try out, I will probably just buy the smallest ECN-2 chemical kit and a few rolls of pre-loaded film. For chemicals, you only need prewash and color developer, since you can re-use stop bath and fixer from your B&W/C41 setup. I would recommend to start with ECN-2 in ECN-2, so you get the authentic experience. If it is only 1-2 rolls, I might well get it processed by a good lab like Atlanta Film Co.

Once you play with the negatives in Lightroom/Photoshop and like what you see from a well-processed ECN-2 film, then jump full in a bulk roll.

I have been experimenting with ECN-2 film (including Vision 3) for a few years now, and what I save in film cost I pay in processing. There is extra steps in processing, the remjet is not always 100% clean, and I might not like the out of box color palette, and etc.

But experiment we must.

 

[Romanko]

Do you have labs that process ECN-2? I also want to try Vision 3 but I will probably have my first rolls developed by a good lab.

 

[Cholentpot]

I run through C-41 with a baking soda wash to loosen the REM and then rub off after the fix. It's worked for me. Somewhere on this site is a long thread of people posting photos of their results.

 

[cerber0s]

Do you have labs that process ECN-2? I also want to try Vision 3 but I will probably have my first rolls developed by a good lab.

Nope, not that I know of. For some reason Sweden has not taken to the analog resurgence like the US and continental Europe seem to have. Prices of analog cameras are up on the used market, and photo stores stock film and chemicals, but the labs are few and mostly do C41.

It’s not an issue for me as I do all my processing at home.

 

[cerber0s]

I run through C-41 with a baking soda wash to loosen the REM and then rub off after the fix. It's worked for me. Somewhere on this site is a long thread of people posting photos of their results.

That would probably be my approach as well.

 

[perkeleellinen]

You might like this:

 

[koraks]

Would you:

None of the options you list. I use ECN2 developer which I mix from scratch (easy to do, ingredients are fairly easy and cheap to get). Then I use C41 bleach and fix just like for C41 film. After processing, I dump the reel with film still on it in a weak solution of sodium carbonate and unroll it, and while doing so, remove the remaining remjet with a soft brush. If you're somewhat careful to prevent the emulsion side from touching the backside of the film that still has remjet on it, you can do a really clean job in just a few minutes. It can also help to put a bit of the sodium carbonate solution into the tank after fix and a brief water rinse, then shake vigorously, dump, fill with water & shake again - repeat until the water runs clear (two cycles usually). Then do the brushing thing in the carbonate bath.

Other than the remjet, it's really not much different from C41 processing; it's just a different developer.

The remjet just takes some getting used to, but once you figure out what works best for you, it's fairly quick & easy to get 100% clean negatives.

negative tend to be flat and need a lot of post to correct colors.

There's not more color-correction necessary on ECN2 film than on C41 film the way I scan it (as a positive/slide, then do inversion manually). In fact, the process is precisely the same. The color balance is different so the correction curve is different, but that doesn't matter in terms of time, complexity etc.
You can overdevelop the film to get more contrast; I develop for 3m45s at 41C in ECN2 developer to get negatives that print perfectly fine on RA4 paper (optical enlargement).

Developing in C41 developer works, too, but the colors aren't quite as nice as with ECN2 developer, I find. If you only scan, it doesn't matter all that much as the crossover can to an extent be fixed, but I prefer to avoid it altogether.

What I like about Vision3 is that the colors are more muted than on the Portra's, Gold's etc., which is relevant when optically printing.

 

[eatfrog]

Nope, not that I know of. For some reason Sweden has not taken to the analog resurgence like the US and continental Europe seem to have. Prices of analog cameras are up on the used market, and photo stores stock film and chemicals, but the labs are few and mostly do C41.

It’s not an issue for me as I do all my processing at home.

https://www.focusfilm.se/ does ECN2 but per meter, not sure what the cost would be if you sent them 35mm still film cartridges.. maybe worth sending them an email.

 

[lamerko]

The composition of the chemistry is quite simple, and the official recipes are published by Kodak for free use. This implies creating kits without reverse engineering for the color developer. Cinestill's 6 bath kit seems to follow the official recipe and process. Their abridged 3 and 2 bath kits have minor modifications - most interestingly, they've combined pre-bath with the developer. I don't know how good it is. But you might want to increase the processing time by 40 seconds.

 

[Cholentpot]

That would probably be my approach as well.

If the goal is cost savings then just go with standard press kit C-41 Blix with a baking soda/washing soda prebath and scrub under running water after the stab. Correct everything in post and don't bother with filters. Works fine for me.

Generally you'll fine two types on here. One kind wants optimal results no matter what the cost and effort, the other just wants a decent image.

Once you know what you're getting into you can pivot between the two views. Shooting some Tmax 100 and have some D-76 and fresh fixer laying around? Load up that M6 or Nikon F2 and do the best you can. Undated V3500T in a 1000 foot can that's been stored who knows how long? Load up the Argus C3, fire away and develop your 42nd roll in that C-41 kit.

 

[koraks]

Generally you'll fine two types on here. One kind wants optimal results no matter what the cost and effort, the other just wants a decent image.

There are maybe one or two people I know on this forum who fall in the first category. I'm not one of them.

 

[Cholentpot]

There are maybe one or two people I know on this forum who fall in the first category. I'm not one of them.

If it's one or two they're very active.

 

[koraks]

If it's one or two they're very active.

Perhaps so.

What I'm saying mostly is that I think virtually all of us are compromising. The question is what is "decent" and we all have different perceptions on this, depending on...lots of things. What we do with the negatives, what our ambitions are, how we perceive colors, what we enjoy (not) doing in our darkrooms and behind our computers...

I found the dichotomy that you suggested a little problematic, because it doesn't really work like a dichotomy in reality. Particularly, it doesn't really give much direction in making choices w.r.t. film processing. Mind you, I recognize the (false) dichotomy as something I've suggested from time to time as well, but the more I think about it, the less appropriate I believe it is.

 

[Richard Man]

What's the baking soda wash ratio? Thanks

 

[cerber0s]

virtually all of us are compromising

For sure.

My technical abilities far outweigh my artistic abilities. I wish the opposite was true.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

I’d like to try Vision 3! Just because it’s that much cheaper than anything else. I can get a 100ft roll to bulk load for the price of six rolls of Portra. I’m thinking about getting a 36 frame roll just to try it.

I don’t have room in my designated “film gadget cabinet” to add five bottles of ECN-2 developer, which is why I’m considering the Cinestill 2 bath ECN-2 developer, I’ve been very pleased with the C41 version.

Would you:
1. Try the Cinestill ECN-2 kit?

2. Develop in C41 developer and rub the remjet layer off afterwards.

3. Soak the film in some remjet removal solution and then develop in either C41 or ECN-2 developer?

I can suggest you, even if you're on limited shelf space, to buy the ECN kit from Bellini Photo. The best there is.

 

[Cholentpot]

What's the baking soda wash ratio? Thanks

I fill the tank with 105 degree water and dump in a heap load of powder. I'd say a few tablespoons. I let soak for a minute or two, burp the lid and shake the heck out of it. Dump, fill with water, shake and repeat until water runs marginally clear.

 

[cerber0s]

Does remjet residue mess up your chemicals, tank, or reel? Should I keep a tank and reel specifically for ECN-2 film, even if I use C41 developer?

 

[pentaxuser]

You might like this:

Thanks for that video link It was well presented and I found it useful. Yes the RA4 from the the C41 neg tended to catch my eye more at first the less contrasty ECN-2 negative did look more natural in the whisky shot and the beer shot, especially in the colour of the "heads" on the beer as per koraks comments on this aspect

It looks as if this presenter is worth checking out for part I as well

pentaxuser

 

[Cholentpot]

Does remjet residue mess up your chemicals, tank, or reel? Should I keep a tank and reel specifically for ECN-2 film, even if I use C41 developer?

It makes your reels a bit dirty, some dawn soap and a toothbrush take care of it. It does get into the developer but from what I've seen (hundreds of rolls) it doesn't mess with other rolls put through the same developer.

 

[cerber0s]

It makes your reels a bit dirty, some dawn soap and a toothbrush take care of it. It does get into the developer but from what I've seen (hundreds of rolls) it doesn't mess with other rolls put through the same developer.

Thanks, that’s a bit reassuring