Kodak to put film prices up in 2012.

PKM-25 · Feb 16, 2014

benjiboy said:
Aren't I allowed to make another remark after giving the matter some consideration ?

I was still addressing the other post, I'm protective and defensive of the makers of film, regardless of brand...

Roger Cole · Feb 16, 2014

Darkroom317 said:
Does anyone have any information about the rumors that Kodak sheet film is about to double?

Sal Santamaura said:
"This forum is NOT for rumors and speculation."

Sounds unlikely anyway. They've already almost priced themselves out. In B&W there are just too many excellent choices from Ilford and now Adox (plus decent ones from Foma and one excellent, pricey but not double Kodak price, one from Fuji) to make that viable.

Color is different and would be sad but I already shoot color with a RF back whenever framing and lens choice allows.

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Xmas · Feb 16, 2014

Prest_400 said:
If Fuji keeps going for a long while, much better.
Also, it is the technological / R&D gap that will be lost when a smaller company has to produce the film, if they don't get the original formulas. Fuji and Kodak dropped a huge amount on resources on R&D for the film, other companies didn't. Doesn't mean they had bad film, but that it wouldn't be as technically perfect as Kodak or Fuji's. Another reason to not enter the colour market.
I can't, for the life of me, remember how this technological regression effect was named.

well-
- Agfa also did lots of e.g. colour coupler R&D before WWII, the good news is they lost lots of it to reparations
- There is a gap - Ilford have not made C41 or at least their last colour neg film was send back to Ilford for processing. It did seemed competitive to Kodak's in '65. I think Ilfords last transparency film was a Kodachrome coupler type film...
- 'dropped; is wrong 'invested to increase market share a few %' is clearer
- commercial secrecy? e.g. Kodak would (will) have some problems moving film to Harrow anyway... I've worked in industrial production, moving a line is like reinventing the wheel, very expensive.
- the C41 mini machines and the happy snappers (as well as cine) support our APUG community - the happy snappers use more film than we do, the happy snappers are using the cheap Fuji rebadged C41 200ISO, cause you can buy it with a purse coin, in our cheapest shops. If Fuji stop they are not going to buy Kodak C41, it is x2-3 times more expensive!

Prest_400 said:
As of 220, Simon stated that it wasn't feasible; Aside of the expense of fixing their machine, the backing for the film had a huge MOQ and it wouldn't payoff for 3 decades

feasible is the wrong word, 'justify investments to board' is clearer
I would suggest a finishing machine repair and backing paper is trivial compared to an E6 or C41 start up, and when they stopped 220 all they needed was the repair, the point was/is if it was selling like hot cakes they would not have stopped and left Kodak a 220 monopoly, and so Kodak had a monopoly and they stopped, why did Kodak stop selling into a monopoly?
I suggest there was and is no wholesale 220 (i.e. reseller) demand, note I considered insufficient but thought no was more accurate.
My reseller still had 220 stocks when it was cancelled, he was pleased my group (panic) bought nearly all of his stocks.

Prest_400 said:
As of this thread being revived... Still film increases weren't made last year?
The "crosstalk" between EK and KA...

Correct but 5222 is the only Kodak product I use, (apart from HCA)

http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uploadedFiles/Customer_Letter_Jan_2014.pdf

If they put up cine costs cause they are not selling enough at their current price point, then they will sell less cine and go out of business sooner, I can ignore 10% increase on 5222 given Trix bulk is some 4x times more expensive here, than 5222, unless I have it shipped in, but the cine people are hurt by 10%.

To stay in business they needed to reduce costs by 10%, even if you were not being superseded by a more advance product, like digital, winnowing managers, would do for starters.

If I used C41 I can buy rebadged Fuji 200 24 in any large town at 1GBP but Kodak Gold C41 200 36 at cheapest reseller 4.36GBP over the counter, bit of a hike if Fuji stop rebadging or go out of C41 (Fuji Superia 200 36 is 3.43GBP same reseller).

Noel

jp80874 · Feb 16, 2014

Kodak,

who?

John Powers

MDR · Feb 16, 2014

Kodak is evil evil I tell you, how dare them to ask money for their products. The 10% increase is painful no doubt about it but at least they still make MP film unlike some others (Ilford could still sell their Mark V or HP5 for MP use to amateurs but they don't neither does Fuji). In fact we should stop the counterproductive bitching and moaning and start to support Kodak not only trough our wallet but also trough positive talk.

StoneNYC · Feb 16, 2014

MDR said:
Kodak is evil evil I tell you, how dare them to ask money for their products. The 10% increase is painful no doubt about it but at least they still make MP film unlike some others. In fact we should stop the counterproductive bitching and moaning and start to support Kodak not only trough our wallet but also trough positive talk.

If they bring back E100G I'll support them....

MDR · Feb 16, 2014

Stone E100g would be a Kodak Alaris product and it's for them to decide, Eastman Kodak are they guys who could produce it if Kodak Alaris wanted them to. So Eastman Kodak can't help you only the Brits can

If Eastman Kodak falls so does Kodak Alaris and there would be no more Kodak film products. The earthquake would also have a huge effect on all other film mfg.

Roger Cole · Feb 16, 2014

Stone, I thought you like Velvia? I like E100G a lot (still got about 15 rolls of 35mm in the freezer) but the Fuji film it was closest to was Astia (sort of between Astia and Provia in contrast, maybe closer to Astia, but with a definite Kodak palette.) The closest Kodak film to Velvia would have been E100VS which was a very good high saturation film. I always found it a bit easier to manage than Velvia.

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fotch · Feb 16, 2014

Kodak is a good company, once great, until the new boss blew it. Its not the fault of the majority of workers, rather, blame the share holders. JMHO

PKM-25 · Feb 16, 2014

jp80874 said:
Kodak,

who?

Kodak, the makers of outstanding films like Tmax and Tri-X and a host of color that professional photographers like me depend on along with other commited film makers like Ilford. And all of these products I find highly affordable by the way, same price as all the others really except for Acros in 4x5.

I support those who still serve the greater good of analog photography, not bash them or pick them apart like some juvenile. I also don't continually ask over and over again for products ( E100G ) that are not coming back, instead preferring I let my inherent talents shine with what we have left.

I guess that is the difference between a photographer and a photo enthusiast...

Roger Cole · Feb 16, 2014

Regarding Ilford and C41 - note that Ilford coats C41 now, in the form of XP-2 Super (and a fantastic, under rated film it is. Once I have running water in the darkroom and maybe start stocking C41 chems again I can see moving a lot of my MF to it, except the high speed stuff I shoot on D3200.) It isn't color with a single monochrome layer but it is dye based and C41. How much this bears on the feasibility of producing color if the corporate focus should ever include that I don't really know. I'm just glad to have Ilford and their superb B&W materials available.

Hopefully we will have Kodak C41 for a long time to come. The selection is certainly less than it used to be but, honestly, with Ektar and Portra in 160, 400 and 800 speeds I have pretty much any color neg need I have met.

Prest_400 · Feb 16, 2014

Xmas said:
Noel

Thanks for the deep clarification! Afterall, I posted only things that I can recall and very deep knowledge of the industry is not in the head of this student.

MDR said:
If Eastman Kodak falls so does Kodak Alaris and there would be no more Kodak film products. The earthquake would also have a huge effect on all other film mfg.

Indeed, would have to see if they would relocate (still) film production to Harrow. But, EK's fall would mean also no MP film and losing the economies of scale involved with intermediate products. Let's not think about it, and if/when that happens, it's going to be in a far future.

It should be more appropiate on a KA thread, but posting it here as it's the ongoing discussion:
As of 2 days ago, Alaris appointed a new CEO who will take the reigns in April 1 (oops, had to be THAT day? Just realised it while writing this).
http://www.businesswire.com/news/ho...alf-Gerbershagen-Chief-Executive#.UwEWymJdXLt
Saw it on Kodak's "Kodak Professional" Facebook Page.

The future of (Still) Film seems European.

jp80874 · Feb 16, 2014

PKM-25 said:
Kodak, the makers of outstanding films like Tmax and Tri-X and a host of color that professional photographers like me depend on along with other commited film makers like Ilford. And all of these products I find highly affordable by the way, same price as all the others really except for Acros in 4x5.

I support those who still serve the greater good of analog photography, not bash them or pick them apart like some juvenile. I also don't continually ask over and over again for products ( E100G ) that are not coming back, instead preferring I let my inherent talents shine with what we have left.

I guess that is the difference between a photographer and a photo enthusiast...

Kodak, the company that stopped offering Polymax papers that I loved for about five years.
Kodak, the company that started putting ten sheets of 7x17 film in a 16x20 box. Put 200-300 sheets of that in your home freezer.
Kodak, the company that started putting ten sheets of 8x10 film in a 50 sheet box and charging close to the 50 sheet price.
Kodak, the company that priced itself out of the ulf market unless you are willing to pay 2x the price because you can't print Azo or platinum with any other film.

I don't really find name calling (" like some juvenile" and "the difference between a photographer and a photo enthusiast") particularly adult either.

Kodak, who?

The 74 year old juvenile who has been buying Ilford ever since Polymax went away.

John Powers

Ken Nadvornick · Feb 16, 2014

PKM-25 said:
I guess that is the difference between a photographer and a photo enthusiast...

Of course, the problem with this sort of artificial distinction is that a dollar spent on Kodak products by a photo enthusiast is indistinguishable to EK's bottom line from a dollar spent on the same products by a photographer. Drawing such a line implies that the concerns of the enthusiast are somehow less important, because their purchasing dollars are worth less.

If I am EK/KA the last thing I want to be doing right now is driving more artificial wedges into what remains of my film purchasing customer base. By this point in time I should think it obvious that every remaining film customer is worthy of my full and complete attention. From the fanciest self-obsessed professional photographer all the way down to the goofiest Lomo kid who's willing to eat at McDonald's to save more money for that cool film stuff he likes so much.

These days they all count equally, as do their concerns...

Ken

StoneNYC · Feb 16, 2014

Roger Cole said:
Stone, I thought you like Velvia? I like E100G a lot (still got about 15 rolls of 35mm in the freezer) but the Fuji film it was closest to was Astia (sort of between Astia and Provia in contrast, maybe closer to Astia, but with a definite Kodak palette.) The closest Kodak film to Velvia would have been E100VS which was a very good high saturation film. I always found it a bit easier to manage than Velvia.

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I like Velvia50.... Not as much 100 and not much for Provia100f.

My thought is, it seems Kodak are trying to stay in the market. Fuji is pricing themselves out even more than kodak, so I could see switching to E100G IF it came back. Plus Velvia50 can only be gotten from japan and is a pain to find distributors and get it imported etc.

For now I'll shoot it (V50) as long as I can but if Kodak re-introduced it, I would switch to support it rather than follow Fuji since I can't get the film I like in America...

MDR · Feb 16, 2014

Kodak still Film = Kodak Alaris
Kodak Motion Picture Film = Eastman Kodak

The price increase for Motion Picture product does not affect the still films sold under the Kodak Alaris banner in any way.

Kodak does not care about the little guy because Kodak does not have the little guy as a customer, they have big corporations as customers some small producers, a few artists and Students. And despite their financial troubles Kodak does care a lot about the Students and the little guy Artist they receive amongst other things price discounts, EK sponsors several activities related to Student and Art films etc... EK is also the company that makes still film for Kodak Alaris. Eastman Kodak can not care about the little amateur or pro-photographer because they don't deal with them in any way except maybe a few feet of Double-X but that's it. So complaining about EK being bad because they don't care about the photo enthusiast is just BS

If you want new films from Kodak Alaris buy Kodak Alaris film and try to get Kodak Alaris to introduce new films which is unlikely imo. If you want to ressurect old still films contact Kodak Alaris they might be willing to do so if you and about 10 000+ friends would be willing to buy a few hundred rolls of the film and that every year.

Roger Cole · Feb 16, 2014

StoneNYC said:
I like Velvia50.... Not as much 100 and not much for Provia100f.

My thought is, it seems Kodak are trying to stay in the market. Fuji is pricing themselves out even more than kodak, so I could see switching to E100G IF it came back. Plus Velvia50 can only be gotten from japan and is a pain to find distributors and get it imported etc.

For now I'll shoot it (V50) as long as I can but if Kodak re-introduced it, I would switch to support it rather than follow Fuji since I can't get the film I like in America...

Well what I'm saying is that if you like Velvia 50 (and don't hate 100, never mind the execrable 100F variety) but don't care for Provia 100F, you might not like E100G that much either. It's definitely more like Provia than Velvia, only more so - less contrast and saturation than Provia, closer to Astia.

Personally I really like it precisely because it has realistic saturation and contrast that doesn't make shooting it in variable lighting an exercise in fill light or passing up shots, but YMMV.

PKM-25 · Feb 16, 2014

jp80874 said:
Kodak, the company that stopped offering Polymax papers that I loved for about five years.
Kodak, the company that started putting ten sheets of 7x17 film in a 16x20 box. Put 200-300 sheets of that in your home freezer.
Kodak, the company that started putting ten sheets of 8x10 film in a 50 sheet box and charging close to the 50 sheet price.
Kodak, the company that priced itself out of the ulf market unless you are willing to pay 2x the price because you can't print Azo or platinum with any other film.

I don't really find name calling (" like some juvenile" and "the difference between a photographer and a photo enthusiast") particularly adult either.

Kodak, who?

The 74 year old juvenile who has been buying Ilford ever since Polymax went away.

John Powers

Then just move on, none of this Kodak bashing helps anyone, not you and certainly not me, it's inconsiderate of other's wants and needs and I am SICK of it!!!

60 posts ago, for what ever reason and after over a YEAR, "Benjiboy" resurrected this thread and now it is back to the same old Kodak Bashing, post after post after post, DAMN IT!

I'm here in my office with my wife and we are mounting prints, prints that I have to sell to pay my bills, some shot on Kodak, some on Ilford. I just get FED UP with reading this garbage, it's useless and really speaks to what people's priorities are...not photography.

Peter Schrager · Feb 16, 2014

PKM-25 ditto a hundred times over...stop going to buy stupid garbage starbucks coffee and support film!!
best,peter

Xmas · Feb 16, 2014

MDR said:
Kodak still Film = Kodak Alaris
Kodak Motion Picture Film = Eastman Kodak
The price increase for Motion Picture product does not affect the still films sold under the Kodak Alaris banner in any way.

If EK dies then KA goes with it they are Siamese twins, one will get gangrene 24 hours after the other dies?

MDR said:
Kodak does not care about the little guy because Kodak does not have the little guy as a customer, they have big corporations as customers some small producers, a few artists and Students. And despite their financial troubles Kodak does care a lot about the Students and the little guy Artist they receive amongst other things price discounts, EK sponsors several activities related to Student and Art films etc... EK is also the company that makes still film for Kodak Alaris. Eastman Kodak can not care about the little amateur or pro-photographer because they don't deal with them in any way except maybe a few feet of Double-X but that's it. So complaining about EK being bad because they don't care about the photo enthusiast is just BS

Don't agree even with that, even if that is kodaks management perspective - Kodak is totally dependent upon both the cine people and the happy snapper people, it is not dependent upon us, e.g. finr art, pros or street, etc. it is totally dependent upon the happy snapper, i.e, not buying green boxes, or reboxed Fuji. Which they are doing in the UK cause of a 2-3 x £ {$} differential. Tell me you would pay x3 times for holiday shots...

MDR said:
If you want new films from Kodak Alaris buy Kodak Alaris film and try to get Kodak Alaris to introduce new films which is unlikely imo. If you want to ressurect old still films contact Kodak Alaris they might be willing to do so if you and about 10 000+ friends would be willing to buy a few hundred rolls of the film and that every year.

I do not buy Kodak still fill, do you think I'm a lunatic, Kodak cine is 1/4 the price of still? I'm not going to subsidise (pay the salaries of) Kodak's bloated management structure, I'd prefer to see then unemployed, this is a free market. I buy the cheapest film I can use.
Our happy snappers (and street people) are buying rebadged Fuji cause it is 1/3 the price of Kodak.
Kodak lost the plot 40 years ago, they did not recognise their lunch was about to be eaten by Fuji.
WiKi says later than that but that is not what my Kodak insiders told me in 1980... they needed to change before 1980...
Management divorced from all reality, not recognising (all) the family(ies) going on holiday needed to buy a yellow box rather then a green one..

Noel

eddie · Feb 16, 2014

I think your "happy snappers" are using a completely different technology, at this point.
I'm not ready to bury, or praise, Kodak yet. While I usually use Ilford, I'd like to see how Alaris responds to their market before swearing Kodak off altogether. My next film order will certainly include some Kodak film.

Sal Santamaura · Feb 16, 2014

Prest_400 said:
...Alaris appointed a new CEO...http://www.businesswire.com/news/ho...alf-Gerbershagen-Chief-Executive#.UwEWymJdXLt...

Wow, Alaris learned well from its "parent." After Kodak had such success with Perez, an HP executive lacking any background in film, Alaris decided to go with Gerbershagen, a Motorola executive lacking any background in film. Good luck with that!

Xmas · Feb 16, 2014

eddie said:
I think your "happy snappers" are using a completely different technology, at this point.
I'm not ready to bury, or praise, Kodak yet. While I usually use Ilford, I'd like to see how Alaris responds to their market before swearing Kodak off altogether. My next film order will certainly include some Kodak film.

Yes 99.97% are using cam phones, but it is the 0.03% residual that is buying the cheap rebranded Fiji, and ignoring the more expensive Kodak, they are keeping the remaining few mini labs in our holiday towns busy. The 0.03 residual buy more films than us on APUG.
Since 1970 Fuji have been better placed than Kodak.

It is a simple test how many cameras did the USA make after WWII, how many cameras did Ja make since WWII.

Today the Ja are not worried about the USA but another Asian country...

You have just confessed to using Ilford, does that not compromise your posture, i.e. do as I say not as I do.

Noel

jp80874 · Feb 16, 2014

PKM-25 said:
Then just move on, none of this Kodak bashing helps anyone, not you and certainly not me, it's inconsiderate of other's wants and needs and I am SICK of it!!!

60 posts ago, for what ever reason and after over a YEAR, "Benjiboy" resurrected this thread and now it is back to the same old Kodak Bashing, post after post after post, DAMN IT!

I'm here in my office with my wife and we are mounting prints, prints that I have to sell to pay my bills, some shot on Kodak, some on Ilford. I just get FED UP with reading this garbage, it's useless and really speaks to what people's priorities are...not photography.

talk about juvenile.

John Powers

Ken Nadvornick · Feb 16, 2014

Sal Santamaura said:
Wow, Alaris learned well from its "parent." After Kodak had such success with Perez, an HP executive lacking any background in film, Alaris decided to go with Gerbershagen, a Motorola executive lacking any background in film. Good luck with that!

Saw that too. In the interest of giving Alaris some breathing room around here, I wasn't going to say anything. But I wasn't not thinking anything.

Near the bottom of the article it says,

"Gerbershagen holds a degree in general electronics and computer science from the Bingen University. He is married with two adult children and has interests in sailing, golf, photography and motorcycles."

Wonder if he'd share with us the make and model of camera(s) he uses to pursue his "interests in... photography?"

Ken

Kodak to put film prices up in 2012.

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