How many stops is the straight line of Delta 400?
Kodak Tmax 8x10, 400 and 100, discontinued.
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It would be great if this spurred Ilford to start producing it in sheet film again....
..i've been saying for years that KODAK should sell off it's film division. It will save the films as they are known. It worked for the Ilford films. The big corporate machine no longer works for traditional imaging products and services.
Isnt KODAK who just recently put out an article boasting an upswing in film use?
Film use and sales are up this year, and not by a little. There's something wrong with this picture...
dw
dr5chrome,
I'd like to see a source for that. Your statement might be true for pictorial films from smaller manufacturers. From Kodak's perspective, though, cinematic films sales are the largest portion of their overall film sales and they have been plunging for the last 9-12 months.
We've got Kodak now selling under the Arista label and Ilford "off-branding" like crazy (Kentmere, the new Rollei films, etc.). In years past that wasn't a bad thing, because the retailer rather than the manufacturer bore the marketing costs (if any) but it now smacks fof overcapacity.
However, if you have some data available to suggest that segments of the film market are recovering - I will gladly stand corrected. This would be greate news.
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This is an excellent point!
Around 1998 the largest digital camera sellers (by unit sales volume) were Agfa-Gevaert and Polaroid.
Consumers did not easily trust the purchase of a $500 digital camera to a manufacturer of $4/roll film...especially as film (stupidly) was seen as the technology that is inferior and being replaced.
Kodak really DID seem to believe that film would keep growing right along with digital until around 2002. See, for example, the joint venture they engaged in with Lucky Film. Sadly, that did not prove to be the case...
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Kodak formed a joint venture with Lucky and built a plant in Brazil because they expected analog to grow in those areas of the world. However, the cost of digital dropped so rapidly that the Chinese and SA market went directly to digital.
PE
PE
I will use whichever Kodak products appeal to me (for the simple reason that they do appeal to me) for however long as they are available and will move along if (or, as is likely) when they are unavailable.
I already give some of my analog photo business to Ilford (I use some HP5+ and quite a lot of Ilford DD-X) and will give some to ADOX once Polywarmtone is produced again (in fact, I've pledged to buy 5 100 sheet 8x10 boxes on their website). And here again the reason is that these products appeal to me.
No, giving your business to Kodak will not change the attitude of senior leadership towards film (which, by word, has been one of "we are a digital-focused company" rather than "we must stop producing film").
But it does raise the possibility that their film business could be purchased by a group that wants to make a go of it. Kodak, after all, has found buyers for some of their traditional businesses.
This, however, does not enter into my purchasing decisions. I buy Tri-X because I like Tri-X. And for no other reason.
Alvedo,
My point is not to suggest a boycott of Kodak products but rather to those who think buying Kodak film will encourage them to stay in film business, don't bother. They've already made up their minds. Kodak is like a schizophrenic Company split between film vs digital, and the digital side is mostly in control. Kodak engineers produced one of the best films out there, T-Max 400; but Kodak marketing and management could care less. It doesn't fit into their strategy. Even if they had 100% of market share, the market is too small for them.
Given the validity of that analysis, what is a film user to do? About the last thing we would want to happen is for Kodak to be the last maker standing, for they would pull the plug in a heartbeat. What we should prefer is for those companies committed to film (Adox, Ilford, etc.) to be successful. I don't need cutting edge film products, just good films with consistent quality and readily available at reasonable price.
My point is not to suggest a boycott of Kodak products but rather to those who think buying Kodak film will encourage them to stay in film business, don't bother. They've already made up their minds. Kodak is like a schizophrenic Company split between film vs digital, and the digital side is mostly in control. Kodak engineers produced one of the best films out there, T-Max 400; but Kodak marketing and management could care less. It doesn't fit into their strategy. Even if they had 100% of market share, the market is too small for them.
Given the validity of that analysis, what is a film user to do? About the last thing we would want to happen is for Kodak to be the last maker standing, for they would pull the plug in a heartbeat. What we should prefer is for those companies committed to film (Adox, Ilford, etc.) to be successful. I don't need cutting edge film products, just good films with consistent quality and readily available at reasonable price.
Doughawk;
Kodak still makes T-max films, just not cut to 8x10. And you are right, the market for 8x10 is too small, especially when you cut the film and no one buys it and so it goes bad on the shelf. If the business is there, Kodak will supply it, but the business is in rapid decline for ULF film sizes.
Why lose money?
PE
Kodak still makes T-max films, just not cut to 8x10. And you are right, the market for 8x10 is too small, especially when you cut the film and no one buys it and so it goes bad on the shelf. If the business is there, Kodak will supply it, but the business is in rapid decline for ULF film sizes.
Why lose money?
PE
Kodak Tmax 8x10, 400 and 100, discontinued
Hello All: I just happened to be reading through this thread and found a mention of rare earth metals and their applications in film making.I remember an article in a Canadian Business Magazine which stated that a massive deposit of rare earth metals had been discovered in Northern Canada.Preliminary findings indicate that it eclipses China's reserves by at least 5 to 10 fold !!!!.
Further testing of core samples verified this find.Since film isn't the only user of this material, the various mining and processing concerns are saying this discovery will pretty well eliminate China's stranglehold on these materials.
On the downside, it will take at least 3 to 5 years to set up mining and processing facilities to handle this material and produce a commercially viable product.
Just thought I'd bring this to every ones attention.
Doug
Hello All: I just happened to be reading through this thread and found a mention of rare earth metals and their applications in film making.I remember an article in a Canadian Business Magazine which stated that a massive deposit of rare earth metals had been discovered in Northern Canada.Preliminary findings indicate that it eclipses China's reserves by at least 5 to 10 fold !!!!.
Further testing of core samples verified this find.Since film isn't the only user of this material, the various mining and processing concerns are saying this discovery will pretty well eliminate China's stranglehold on these materials.
On the downside, it will take at least 3 to 5 years to set up mining and processing facilities to handle this material and produce a commercially viable product.
Just thought I'd bring this to every ones attention.
Doug
Despite the fact that my financial support means nothing and will change nothing, I still use Kodak films simply because I think they are great. I'll use them until they are gone. Though I do not often favor T films over traditional films, when I do, I particularly like the T-Max line much better than the Delta line (the EI 3200 film excepted). I particularly like T-Max film in T-Max developer at 75F. They are not my "Number One" film company, but I do love their products, and I use them when I know they fit the bill for a particular shoot. I also use Fuji (mostly for color), Ilford, and sometimes Efke and Rollei. I used to shoot at least 100 - 150 rolls of 35mm HP5 a year, but I have switched to Arista Premium 400 because the quality for the price is too good to pass up. When that is gone, I will stockpile some, then go back to HP5 to support Ilford again. I also love TXP sheet film, and I am giving TX a spin in 120, since TXP is not gone.
A devastatingly correct analysis.
And of course no one expects Kodak to lose money. But the reality of Kodak's position in the black-and-white analog market these days is what it is, regardless of how or why they got there. They are winding down film production. Others currently are not, or are ramping it up.
The days of measuring consumer film production in units of how many times the output could circle the globe are over. Companies who can only profitably produce in such mind-boggling volumes are not good bets to be those driving today's smaller pictorial analog markets.
But companies whose minimum film orders might be only "25 packs of 8x10," or who can accomodate reliable yearly production runs of odd-sized sheet film as a good faith exercise in customer service, just may be perfectly positioned. The world does not begin and end with only Kodak.
For the record, as a previous life-long Kodak customer I really do wish this reality was otherwise. But sadly, it is not. If I intend to continue practicing this avocation, I must recognize the progressive nature of this reality.
Ken
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very wise discernment, I totally agree .... as does the majority !
Back to original topic:
At Photokina 2 1/2 months ago the Kodak film stand for one half consisted of the Canham initiative.
There and in talks with them released by Kodak on their website the impression was given that they would be the outlet for Kodak films in ULF sizes.
Thus Kodak's decision to cancel TMax in 8x10 does not surprise me at all. What surprises me is the report here in this thread that the Canhams themselves would not offer it.
I guess by now it is time for a statement by the Canhams on what they intent to offer in future.
At Photokina 2 1/2 months ago the Kodak film stand for one half consisted of the Canham initiative.
There and in talks with them released by Kodak on their website the impression was given that they would be the outlet for Kodak films in ULF sizes.
Thus Kodak's decision to cancel TMax in 8x10 does not surprise me at all. What surprises me is the report here in this thread that the Canhams themselves would not offer it.
I guess by now it is time for a statement by the Canhams on what they intent to offer in future.
I had assumed the Canham deal was that they would offer the product if ordered in sufficient quantities, assuming availability in sheet format from Kodak.
Tom
Tom
To my understanding the Canhams would order any size at Kodak assuming sufficient orders by customers.
(The former would offer a proposal.)
Kodak has no problems making those sizes, but selling them. So they skipped them from their general catalogue.
(The former would offer a proposal.)
Kodak has no problems making those sizes, but selling them. So they skipped them from their general catalogue.
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While we are not connected to 'all' the film sellers in the market place, we are with a few big ones. It was true that ALL photo sales were down in 2009 and 2010 - until AUG 2010 rolled around.
Just our local pro shop here in Denver caught up all the 2010 losses in this last 1/4 and then went almost 40%+ over for the year. Film sales alone in 2010 have been up 45% in this one store. Given how bad the economy still is, this is stunning, they cant keep the film in stock. The sales have not been for digital items either as DPP is a 60% analog shop.
Ill bet FREESTYLE would tell you the same story.
Our business has a residual effect. We are still feeling the downturn and are down this year. I dont expect to see an upswing at our lab for another 2-3 months.
As I said and as it has been stated. KODAK has already made up it's mind. The big company mind-set will no longer work in today's photo market. From the bad economy, LF shooters are still hurting. The film sales have not yet come fully back yet. KODAK is pulling the trigger on a film that will likely come back in 6mo.
I have been in this business too long, not to see the trends and to make the right moves. We are not a 'normal lab'. It's expensive to keep our production going.
Regardless of what is being said, TMAX100 sells. We use it to produce LVT. I know of dozens of other labs that use it in mass quantity. We have clients that use it.. this is just my example. ...sorry, i just don't believe there isn't enough sales for this film size, on the commercial side alone....
Regardless of what KODAK may believe, the quality produced is the best. This discontinuation is in my opinion, the death-blow for KODAK.
If it were up to me I would fire the top people. Even Wall Street says KODAK is one of the worst managed companies. Either KODAK sells their film division, giving it to someone who will be dedicated to film products, or KODAK should just close it all down right now! I know too many who rely on this one film, in all its sizes. As a lab, I cant set up a service, then turn around and tell clients, sorry I cant do it.
We will have to move totally away from KODAK materials. We will have to live with the lesser quality for the sake of telling clients that the service will continue.
If I cant count on a product being there, I cant be using it in our service.
..it's just dollars and cents and wasted time..
dw
Just our local pro shop here in Denver caught up all the 2010 losses in this last 1/4 and then went almost 40%+ over for the year. Film sales alone in 2010 have been up 45% in this one store. Given how bad the economy still is, this is stunning, they cant keep the film in stock. The sales have not been for digital items either as DPP is a 60% analog shop.
Ill bet FREESTYLE would tell you the same story.
Our business has a residual effect. We are still feeling the downturn and are down this year. I dont expect to see an upswing at our lab for another 2-3 months.
As I said and as it has been stated. KODAK has already made up it's mind. The big company mind-set will no longer work in today's photo market. From the bad economy, LF shooters are still hurting. The film sales have not yet come fully back yet. KODAK is pulling the trigger on a film that will likely come back in 6mo.
I have been in this business too long, not to see the trends and to make the right moves. We are not a 'normal lab'. It's expensive to keep our production going.
Regardless of what is being said, TMAX100 sells. We use it to produce LVT. I know of dozens of other labs that use it in mass quantity. We have clients that use it.. this is just my example. ...sorry, i just don't believe there isn't enough sales for this film size, on the commercial side alone....
Regardless of what KODAK may believe, the quality produced is the best. This discontinuation is in my opinion, the death-blow for KODAK.
If it were up to me I would fire the top people. Even Wall Street says KODAK is one of the worst managed companies. Either KODAK sells their film division, giving it to someone who will be dedicated to film products, or KODAK should just close it all down right now! I know too many who rely on this one film, in all its sizes. As a lab, I cant set up a service, then turn around and tell clients, sorry I cant do it.
We will have to move totally away from KODAK materials. We will have to live with the lesser quality for the sake of telling clients that the service will continue.
If I cant count on a product being there, I cant be using it in our service.
..it's just dollars and cents and wasted time..
dw
Kodak's discontinuations seem to be on a "point of no return" basis, rather than being able to rapidly respond to market demands.
Tom
Tom
I never cared for TMud....in the 20 or so years it's been available, the only thing that worked was version #2. And that only because it was closer to Tri-X.
I switched to Rollei films earlier this year, and can see them providing everything I need (excluding Tri-X the wonderfilm). Their Ortho25 is spectacular, and while I tend to shoot mostly RolleiTLR,Hassy,MamiyaM645ProTTL, and occasionally 4x5 (bad back & arthritis the culprits there), I do believe the Rollei films are available up to 8x10 as well.
So, Head over to Freestyle and check it out. The only thing Ilford makes I like are XP2 Super, and HP5+. Fuji discontinued their 1600 so that leaves a hole not filled yet either.
I switched to Rollei films earlier this year, and can see them providing everything I need (excluding Tri-X the wonderfilm). Their Ortho25 is spectacular, and while I tend to shoot mostly RolleiTLR,Hassy,MamiyaM645ProTTL, and occasionally 4x5 (bad back & arthritis the culprits there), I do believe the Rollei films are available up to 8x10 as well.
So, Head over to Freestyle and check it out. The only thing Ilford makes I like are XP2 Super, and HP5+. Fuji discontinued their 1600 so that leaves a hole not filled yet either.
Go to Freestyle and see for yourself. All I said, was that TMud never worked for me, I still like Tri-X, but find the Rollei films the best since the days of APX.
If you're that lazy you can't even look it up for yourself, hang on a second. I'll check for you.
http://www.freestylephoto.biz/3728100-Rollei-ORTHO-25-iso-Orthochromatic-8x10-10-sheets?cat_id=404
There ya go. 8x10 Rollei Ortho 25. Anything else you'd like me to do for you? Breathe, perhaps?
If you're that lazy you can't even look it up for yourself, hang on a second. I'll check for you.
http://www.freestylephoto.biz/3728100-Rollei-ORTHO-25-iso-Orthochromatic-8x10-10-sheets?cat_id=404
There ya go. 8x10 Rollei Ortho 25. Anything else you'd like me to do for you? Breathe, perhaps?
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You need to change that 404 on the end of the link there, Rolleijoe.
Changed, thanks lxdude.
Now takes one directly to the Rollei Ortho 25 8x0 page. .Thanks for the headsup.
Now takes one directly to the Rollei Ortho 25 8x0 page. .Thanks for the headsup.
Sure. I guess the problem wasn't the 404 part as I assumed.
Reading the interview with Mr. Perez, there will be NO standing film of any kind at Kodak, and the last run is probably already coming off the presses.
I vote that we put our nostalgia aside and support those manufacturers who are supporting us. I know this makes Mr. Perez's arguement more believable, but he showed no signs of commitment to film nor any sympathy to anachronistic photographers.
Although hooked on T-Max as soon as it appeared, I for one am buying my new film from Ilford and am educating myself on lesser known companies.
I vote that we put our nostalgia aside and support those manufacturers who are supporting us. I know this makes Mr. Perez's arguement more believable, but he showed no signs of commitment to film nor any sympathy to anachronistic photographers.
Although hooked on T-Max as soon as it appeared, I for one am buying my new film from Ilford and am educating myself on lesser known companies.
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