Kodak: The Rise and Fall of an American Tech Giant

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Europan

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If I wanted to be a little mean, I’d mention that George Eastman had bought together a lot of what he praised to be wonderful Kodak, say the roll film holder for instance. At one point in time W. G. Stuber saved his enterprise from total wreckage. EKC copied the gold sensitization from Agfa researchers in the thirties, bought the extended range film affair from Edgerton, Germeshausen, and Grier, Inc. (early sixties), and so on and on. In the field of optics Kodak purchased Schneider lenses for many years (Bausch & Lomb and Wollensak depended on Zeiss and Leitz as well). Parallel to it, the Bell & Howell Co. who served EKC with perforators and many patents on movie cameras or projectors from 1910 through 1949, was also a tech buying and converting plant. The famous Bell & Howell perforator was made under licence from James Williamson, England. The 2709 design camera contains more European inventions than B. & H. would have liked to become known.

Worse still, at least for my taste, are the cover-up stories purported by the Rochester company. One of them is the Kodachrome romance of two musicians and hobby chemists that should have experimented in a bath tub to eventually solve a problem. Eastman was still alive when that was pulled off. Evil was inside the enterprise through the founder himself. Just to read about how he fobbed Henry Reichenbach in 1889 while at the same time stealing Goodwin’s invention is dreadful. Of course did and does Kodak make good products but better don’t ask how. In a way, they deserve to be put back where they belong. Not even capable of offering all their 16-mm. stocks perforated both sides after EKC had introduced the format 98 years ago
 

AgX

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Valid points concerning Eastman. He was good in taking other people's ideas and turning them into valid commercial products.

The gold stabilisation you refer to Kodak only learned of due to getting access to secret Agfa documents post WWII.
 

AgX

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The invention by Koslowsky was kept secret by Agfa.
 

Rudeofus

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Moore’s law has little if anything to do with sensors.
And only a little bit more to do with flash memory that made digital cameras even more viable.
Moore's law has very much to do with sensors, and with all the circuitry needed around them, including the flash memory. We take the processing power needed to debayer a 2MP image for granted today, but in 1975 this was a major computational feat. Floppy disks from the early nineties could barely hold such an image, and creating a JPEG required serious processor power back then. If this is the situation in the early nineties, and you are not accustomed to exponential growth, you'd be very tempted to predict "nothing much useful will be created before 2010", just as Kodak's upper echelons did.
The early digital camera research was not a skunk works project. It was straight research.
A rebel groups skunk works projects aim, is a sellable product of some description.
Tell me, how a company with main business in making specialty chemistry, growing silver halide crystals and coating film would suddenly do "straight research" in semiconductor technology, starting about the same time Intel released their first CPU chip. This sensor from 1975 was certainly not an outgrowth of Kodak's regular research by any means. I have no idea, how they even got money out of their management to get a silicon fab built for them.
Kodak’s real contribution was in other places.
Whatever their real contribution was, they made history with a product completely out of line with their other research. Somehow they got it done when others dabbled around.
 

cmacd123

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This sensor from 1975 was certainly not an outgrowth of Kodak's regular research by any means. I have no idea, how they even got money out of their management to get a silicon fab built for them.
Kodak made the IC used in the EK4 and EK6 self developing cameras. They had a Big business selling Photo resists to Semiconductor companies. I have no doubt that they could easily justify at least A pilot level semiconductor plant if only to support that business. Creating an image sensor also would be applicable to many other products, Auto Focus, automaticaly colour correcting on printers for making prints from colour negatives. They undoubtedly read the technology Journals coming out of Bell Labs and would likly have wanted to try and duplicate anything (like CCD chips) that came out of places like that.
 
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Sirius Glass

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Valid points concerning Eastman. He was good in taking other people's ideas and turning them into valid commercial products.

The gold stabilisation you refer to Kodak only learned of due to getting access to secret Agfa documents post WWII.

That happens when a country starts a war. When they lose, the lose on many levels. History provides many examples.
 

Rudeofus

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Kodak made the IC used in the EK4 and EK6 self developing cameras. They had a Big business selling Photo resists to Semiconductor companies. I have no doubt that they could easily justify at least A pilot level semiconductor plant if only to support that business. Creating an image sensor also would be applicable to many other products, Auto Focus, automaticaly colour correcting on printers for making prints from colour negatives. They undoubtedly read the technology Journals coming out of Bell Labs and would likly have wanted to try and duplicate anything (like CCD chips) that came out of places like that.
Kodak certainly did not just build a silicon fab for the heck of it, and yes, the CCD chip was invented by Bell Labs, but Kodak did break an important thought barrier to create the first digital still camera. Their effort may not be comparable in size and professionalism as Lockhead's efforts, but they were quite certainly skunk work level in terms of hidden from the public paired with sheer ingenuity.
 

Helge

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Moore's law has very much to do with sensors, and with all the circuitry needed around them, including the flash memory. We take the processing power needed to debayer a 2MP image for granted today, but in 1975 this was a major computational feat. Floppy disks from the early nineties could barely hold such an image, and creating a JPEG required serious processor power back then. If this is the situation in the early nineties, and you are not accustomed to exponential growth, you'd be very tempted to predict "nothing much useful will be created before 2010", just as Kodak's upper echelons did.

Tell me, how a company with main business in making specialty chemistry, growing silver halide crystals and coating film would suddenly do "straight research" in semiconductor technology, starting about the same time Intel released their first CPU chip. This sensor from 1975 was certainly not an outgrowth of Kodak's regular research by any means. I have no idea, how they even got money out of their management to get a silicon fab built for them.

Whatever their real contribution was, they made history with a product completely out of line with their other research. Somehow they got it done when others dabbled around.

1975 is when the first commercial "digital camera" came out:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromemco_Cyclops

You seem to forget that photo lithography is a photographic process. Kodak did research and products far wider than "just" silver halide.

There was always Laserdiscs, CDs, hard discs and helical scan tapes to hold lots of data.
Some of the first serious uses of digitised photos and analog still video on a Laserdisc is from the late 70s,
A few years into the eighties came the Bernoulli Box disc and the Kodak/Drivetec 6.6 Mb drive.
Data storage was never that much of a problem for digital images. But has of course become easier.
BTW the Kodak/Drivetec drive wasn't as totally inept as PE describes it. They did make it work. They just priced it and the discs way wrong, and it had heavy competition from regular hard drives.
https://www.vcfed.org/forum/forum/c...kodak-verbatim-6-6-mb-floppy-drive#post498964
https://books.google.dk/books?id=f-QDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA192&lpg=PA192&dq=Drivetec+Kodak+super+floppy&source=bl&ots=5yj0RrXn_A&sig=ACfU3U06d8AW2jhzgXwIPTWP6XjkKzqSWA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjEk6Cr17jxAhWYjaQKHTA0Av8Q6AEwEnoECBQQAw#v=onepage&q=Drivetec Kodak super floppy&f=false

"Advanced" demosaicing, takes some computing power and bandwidth, but simple/naive de-Bayering is quite doable on 80s hardware. A lot also depends on the strength and exact kind of filters used. Modern Bayer arrays use quiet weak filters, to get more luminance detail.

Moores Law is about how many SRAM cells you can cram onto a given die.
Image sensors has some quite different wants and needs. The feature size is gigantic compared to any modern CPU or memory chip.
Flash memory with its floating gate is only partially governed by Moores Law. It is helped by it, but not as much as you'd think. A lot of drastic leaps in capacity, some years back was due to being able to use single cells to hold multiple bits. So in a sense it's more fundamentally analog than the strictly binary flip-flops in regular memory cells.
Also the speed, latency and bandwidth is not scaled by feature size and wire length, in the same way as with other semiconductor products.
 
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Helge

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Kodak's heart was in film.
Kodaks heart was in coating and certain branches of chemistry.
Both things they should have been able to leverage to a much higher degree in semiconductors, electronics, optical and magnetic media.
They should have been able to not only excel in known categories, but also create whole new ones.
 
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Kodaks heart was in coating and certain branches of chemistry.
Both things they should have been able leverage to a much higher degree in semiconductors, electronics, optical and magnetic media.
They should have been able to not only excel in known categories, but also create whole new ones.
Kodak owned the film market. They didn't want to give it up especially by being the instrument of their own death.
 

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Helge

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What do you mean? The film market is dead compared to before digital.
They could have owned and guided digital to a much higher degree.
They had thirty years.
And film needn't have taken the nosedive it did (partially because of the recession) around 2002 - 2012 with the right support structure around it, counter marketing, new products and a prepared Kodak (and Fuji and Agfa).
 
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Excluding cell phones, the digital camera market is on life support.
Maybe they should have gone into the cellphone business period. They could have been Apple. :smile:
 

Rudeofus

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1975 is when the first commercial "digital camera" came out:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromemco_Cyclops
You rightfully put quotes around "digital camera" in the description of this "product". 32x32 pixels and 4 bits/pixel would barely qualify as imaging device of any kind. Even the Kodak experiment from 1975 turned out a high res camera compared to this.
"Advanced" demosaicing, takes some computing power and bandwidth, but simple/naive de-Bayering is quite doable on 80s hardware. A lot also depends on the strength and exact kind of filters used. Modern Bayer arrays use quiet weak filters, to get more luminance detail.
The first PC I got in touch with was in 1985. It had 1MB of RAM, an 8088 processor running at 4.77MHz and a 20MB hard disk. There may have been multi megabyte storage media a decade before that, but "handy" is not a term I would use for them. If we assume, that one needs at least 100.000 pixels to obtain a somewhat acceptable image, even that brand new expensive PC from 1985 would have been woefully inadequate to handle a series of images.

Digital photography progressed from "haha that's funny" to "hey I recognize something" to "wow, is that me?" to something, which could do at least newspaper pictures in the 90ies. It was up to Kodak's management to draw a curve through these data points, and they chose not to draw an exponential curve, thereby totally missing the market a few years later. In the late nineties they built a high volume coating facility for film instead of preparing for an organized downscale while trying to monetize the upcoming digital technology. That "exponential growth in performance" thing is Moore's law, and Kodak's management was either unaware of it, or chose to ignore it.
Moores Law is about how many SRAM cells you can cram onto a given die.
Moore's law is about everything, from CPU power to RAM size to magnetic storage device size to choice of storage medium. It's about the whole computer system. And it's an exponential law, unlike most aspects of chemical engineering.
Image sensors has some quite different wants and needs. The feature size is gigantic compared to any modern CPU or memory chip.
The Intel 8088 CPU in that PC was built with 3µm technology, which is larger than pixel width of most digital sensors today, including APS-C and full frame dSLR image sensors. Now try to build an 8 bit ADC (as used in CMOS sensors) next to each such pixel! Nope, a 3µm process would not cut it.
Flash memory with its floating gate is only partially governed by Moores Law. It is helped by it, but not as much as you'd think. A lot of drastic leaps in capacity, some years back was due to being able to use single cells to hold multiple bits. So in a sense it's more fundamentally analog than the strictly binary flip-flops in regular memory cells.
Also the speed, latency and bandwidth is not scaled by feature size and wire length, in the same way as with other semiconductor products.
Moore's law does not mandate smaller device structures or anything like this. Moore's law simply states "device performance doubles every 18 months", and the reasons vary a lot. We hit all kinds of road blocks on the way (device structure smaller than UV wavelength, hard disks not speeding up any further, bus speeds unable to rise infinitely, ...) and that thing keeps moving and moving forward. Storage technology changed, CPU architecture changed, viable chip size increased, acceptable cooling effort increased, lithography changed, ....
 

Don_ih

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What I found with Kodak is that they never put any effort into saying that film was in any way better than digital. I don't know that they ever attempted to convince consumers that they should keep using film - did they ever advertise in that way? I know that they did advertise their own digital cameras and printers a lot. All marketing from every direction in the early 2000s was "buy a digital camera". And, of course, when social media came along, that solidified a reason to do so.
Kodak remains true to form with their lack of interest in supporting their remaining customers (like the people here) by making more film and maybe a selection of paper. Well, they did rerelease Ektachrome - a slide film - with much fanfare - a film you can't enlarge. Obviously, it's so you can post Ektachrome scans to Instagram. That's feeding a fad - not supporting a practice.
 

Helge

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You rightfully put quotes around "digital camera" in the description of this "product". 32x32 pixels and 4 bits/pixel would barely qualify as imaging device of any kind. Even the Kodak experiment from 1975 turned out a high res camera compared to this.

The first PC I got in touch with was in 1985. It had 1MB of RAM, an 8088 processor running at 4.77MHz and a 20MB hard disk. There may have been multi megabyte storage media a decade before that, but "handy" is not a term I would use for them. If we assume, that one needs at least 100.000 pixels to obtain a somewhat acceptable image, even that brand new expensive PC from 1985 would have been woefully inadequate to handle a series of images.

Digital photography progressed from "haha that's funny" to "hey I recognize something" to "wow, is that me?" to something, which could do at least newspaper pictures in the 90ies. It was up to Kodak's management to draw a curve through these data points, and they chose not to draw an exponential curve, thereby totally missing the market a few years later. In the late nineties they built a high volume coating facility for film instead of preparing for an organized downscale while trying to monetize the upcoming digital technology. That "exponential growth in performance" thing is Moore's law, and Kodak's management was either unaware of it, or chose to ignore it.

Moore's law is about everything, from CPU power to RAM size to magnetic storage device size to choice of storage medium. It's about the whole computer system. And it's an exponential law, unlike most aspects of chemical engineering.

The Intel 8088 CPU in that PC was built with 3µm technology, which is larger than pixel width of most digital sensors today, including APS-C and full frame dSLR image sensors. Now try to build an 8 bit ADC (as used in CMOS sensors) next to each such pixel! Nope, a 3µm process would not cut it.

Moore's law does not mandate smaller device structures or anything like this. Moore's law simply states "device performance doubles every 18 months", and the reasons vary a lot. We hit all kinds of road blocks on the way (device structure smaller than UV wavelength, hard disks not speeding up any further, bus speeds unable to rise infinitely, ...) and that thing keeps moving and moving forward. Storage technology changed, CPU architecture changed, viable chip size increased, acceptable cooling effort increased, lithography changed, ....

100 x 100 x 4 bit is not a whole heck of a lot better.
One was a prototype, the other was an actual product.
Sassons camera was "just" on a long list of image digitising devices going back to at least the fifties.
He was perhaps to the first to file an actual patent for a portable consumer digital camera, but far from the first to think of it, or make experimental prototypes of it.

"Acceptable images" varies quite a lot with the use case. The Quantel buffer, PaintBox, SuperPaint, Cromemco and later Amiga in HAM compressed frame buffer mode made very acceptable photo representations on standard video equipment. Early successful digital cameras was not very high resolution either.
Something like the original Sony Mavica with a shoulder strap disc drive would have been very possible and usable in the early 80s. And indeed a similar system was used for newspaper print just a few years later, for Olympic reportage.
Video just got all the attention for various reasons.

For many years, especially mandated by the process of CCDs, all the early DAC logic was on a separate chip. And was just as good for it.
in fact you could argue that it doesn't matter that much whether the signal rolled off the CCD was stored in analog form on tape or disc first. Same signal with only very slight degradation, by the "middle man".

Moores Law was always an educated informal guess and based on observation of ICs in 65 and revised in 75, so based on ECL, TTL and early MOS. And very important it is to a large degree self-fulfilling.
Various "exotics" (at the time and for decades later) follows different trajectories.

It had little to do with performance as such.
In fact some of the highest performance computers of the time had quite low integration.

What I found with Kodak is that they never put any effort into saying that film was in any way better than digital. I don't know that they ever attempted to convince consumers that they should keep using film - did they ever advertise in that way? I know that they did advertise their own digital cameras and printers a lot. All marketing from every direction in the early 2000s was "buy a digital camera". And, of course, when social media came along, that solidified a reason to do so.
Kodak remains true to form with their lack of interest in supporting their remaining customers (like the people here) by making more film and maybe a selection of paper. Well, they did rerelease Ektachrome - a slide film - with much fanfare - a film you can't enlarge. Obviously, it's so you can post Ektachrome scans to Instagram. That's feeding a fad - not supporting a practice.

I wondered the same.
Maybe they where caught in a case of put up or shut up?
They had no real way of guaranteeing the superior quality to the customer.
Accessible and affordable scanners where woefully inadequate. Still is for that matter.
Mr. & Ms. Mom had gotten used to the dreadful drugstore prints, that started out as glorified contact prints to see what you really wanted printed, that ended up being the final and only imaginable product from film for the vast majority of consumers.

Don’t knock Ektachrome though, it's a tremendously good film that perfectly compliments Fuji Films offerings.
Amazing latitude for slide, superb colors, and perhaps the sharpest colour film Kodak currently offers.
And you enlarge it by putting it in a projector.

Because of the low grain, reversed image and not being insanely dense like the Velvias, it’s one of the most scannable films.
With a good scan you can “enlarge” as much as you want.
 
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Don_ih

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Don’t knock Ektachrome

I'm not actually knocking Ektachrome. I am wondering at the motivation and what they'll do when the fad-fueled purchasing dries up.Hopefully, it gets good traction with the motion picture people, because, really, who projects slides? When I was a kid, everyone had a slide projector and 1 out of 10 people actually used them. The fact is, as a still-photo film, this is a product specifically for a digital end result.
 

MattKing

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As I understand it, it was the Kodak Alaris still film marketing people who were the champions for the Ektachrome re-introduction, while the Eastman Kodak motion picture marketing people were simply supportive.
And who knows what role the remaining labs played in the decision.
 

Helge

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I'm not actually knocking Ektachrome. I am wondering at the motivation and what they'll do when the fad-fueled purchasing dries up.Hopefully, it gets good traction with the motion picture people, because, really, who projects slides? When I was a kid, everyone had a slide projector and 1 out of 10 people actually used them. The fact is, as a still-photo film, this is a product specifically for a digital end result.
Projectors, empty slides and carrousels are getting more sought after and expensive. Someone is buying them.
Ektachrome is as said also easy to scan, and very high resolution if you have the scanner and inclination.
 

DREW WILEY

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Ektachrome is not merely about slides. They're now marketing it clear up to 8x10 sheets. Expensive, yes, but a sufficient number of people seem to have the money, especially for 4x5 usage. Old stock photography volumes of E6 films will never occur again; but there might be just enough of a resurrection of Ektachrome sheet film to give it a whole new lifespan. The ability to see exactly what you've got atop a light box is one of the enormous advantages of chrome film, and often a thrill too, in any format size.
 
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