Kodak spectrum analysis film

Relaxing in the Vondelpark

A
Relaxing in the Vondelpark

  • 6
  • 3
  • 141
Mark's Workshop

H
Mark's Workshop

  • 0
  • 1
  • 81
Yosemite Valley.jpg

H
Yosemite Valley.jpg

  • 3
  • 1
  • 88
Three pillars.

D
Three pillars.

  • 4
  • 4
  • 90
Water from the Mountain

A
Water from the Mountain

  • 4
  • 0
  • 112

Forum statistics

Threads
197,546
Messages
2,760,831
Members
99,399
Latest member
fabianoliver
Recent bookmarks
0

Ikon

Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
21
Location
Flanders, BE
Format
Multi Format
Hi,
Has anyone ever heard of these films:

Kodak spectrum analysis film nr. 3 (0637), emulsion 016-0111
Kodak spectrum analysis film nr. 1 (0667)
Kodak spectroscopic film (Sp 421), emulsion 163651

I received these well-conserved films (30 meter rolls, 35mm perforated) together with some darkroom equipment. I am told that they got used in a spectrometric application. But I have no idea wether these films can be used for normal photography.
 

CBG

Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2004
Messages
889
Format
Multi Format
Why not just roll up a couple of rolls and try them?
 
OP
OP

Ikon

Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
21
Location
Flanders, BE
Format
Multi Format
That's what I'm going to do, but some info (e.g. sensitivity, developers,...) could have made that a lot easier.
 

Mike Wilde

Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2006
Messages
2,903
Location
Misissauaga
Format
Multi Format
Well, I had an unknown film over the weekend. It was 100' of Kodak 2575 High Speed Duplicating Film circa 1980. Bought at a camera show for about $4 for a lark as to see what it might be. I thought it might be related to 2475, which is a recording film that gave grain the size of snow balls. The box said was ok to handle under 1A safelight, so I presumed it was orhtho chomatic, or maybe only blue senstive. So if that was the case, maybe it was closer to fine grain release film? Unprocessed it looked white, like fine grain relase does.

Loaded 36 exposures into a cassette, stuck it in a camera and set the meter on 12asa. Ortho dupe films, high speed or not, are usually slow. Metered on a grey slide in a slide duper set up on the enlarger desk. The duper diffusion plate is illuminated by an MR-16 tungsten bulb I have set up for this sort of tests. I filtered the slide to daylight with a balancing filter, in case the tungsten is too red to mate well with the ortho's response curve.

Round 1 -Metering was f/5.6 at 1/30". Exposed 1/100, 1/30, 1/8, 1/2. Open the camera back after 5 frames in the dark, and take the exposed film and toss it into a tray of Dektol paper developer, and turn on the Red safelight I reserve for ortho film use.

Dektol will develop anything. Harshly often, but enough to get you started on a usable speed when you start with an unknown film. After 2' the film was uniformly black, save a bit of grey leader.
All fogged? Toss first test into fixer tray.

Round 2- White lights on. Pull 2" out of cassette. White lights off. Pull another 2" out of the cassette unexposed. Toss into dektol. The flashed leader goes clear, and unexposed stays black. A light bulb goes on in my head. Oh - this is positive to positive film, and was pre-flashed in manufacture. We are working on the part of the HD curve over the shoulder where the reponse curves down again!

Round 3 - Change target slide to one I have of a MacBeth colour checker chart. Shoot it f/5.6 at 4, 20 and 80 seconds. Pull and precess next 6" of film in the tray. The result is that 20 seconds is weak, 80 seconds is overexposed. The film appears to be blue sesnitive only, based on the squares of the Macbeth chart that show density. I am getting somewhere finally.

Round 4 - Pull the colour correcting filter since the film is blue sensitive only, and expose wide open f/3.5 on my macro lens, for 1, 2, 4, and 8 seconds. It turns out that expsoure between 2 and 4 seconds looks best. the final results needs to be refined in a less severe developer than Dektol, and projected. It looks like the film is still viable, but will not be used in the field. Speed works out to less than ISO 0.5. It does appear to be grainless so far.

I am thinking this might be the right product for me to use to shoot copy negatives with. I have negs from my early years in photogrpahy that hold precious scenes, but could really benefit from some intensification efforts. My experiences with 35mm intensification are that it is not always a sure thing. I would like to have a dupe before the original goes into my intensification regime. This product shoud fill the bill.

I hope this play by play gives you ideas on how to quickly test a totally unknown film to get you close to a more refined second roll effort. So far this effort went though 24" of 100' of film.

The same night I shot about 8 test frames on the MacBeth chart each of Ektachome 160T, and Ektachome Plus 100 that are also at least 10 years out of date 100' rolls that I am working on trying to calibrate. These I taped end to end with film splicing tape and loaded in total darkness onto a stainless steel reel, and placed it with other reels that are piling up in a capped daylight tank awaiting processing. I will process them tomorrow the other backlogged slide films.

The colour test slide results will be reviewed as to thier current effective speed by looking at the five white to grey squares at the bottom of the Macbeth chart. The exposure out of the bracket of times taken that looks best is then reviewed for colour casts with colour print viewing filters and a loupe over a daylight balanced light box.

Often old slide film takes on a colour cast that can be corrected by fitting a Cokin filter holder with the right Wratten filters set on the camera to counter the worst of the cast. The balancing filters and whole grey test neg is then put into the slide duper, and the camera film speed is adjusted until the metering matchs at the aperture and time used for the best looking original exposure. That gives you the new speed with the filters in place

I then write this on each cassette I wind off, and put the needed Wrattens into a Cokin 194 gelatin holder that I have for the old Cokin filter systen that I have acquired over the years.

There can be 'crosed curves' with old film, that colour correction filters or post processing scanning cannot fix (at leats to my level of scanning skills).

Then it is a question of where do you want to place the cast to use it creatively. I usually strive for balancing for white in the highlights, and can usually live with colour shifted shadows when shooting slide film.

Partially unscrewing crossed curves is usually a task best accomplished by reading off the density of the primary red, blue and green chips of the test chart for a range of bracketted exposures once the new efefctive speed is found on a densitometer. The measured values are plotted on a log plot and thus one can plot and read from the plotting the new (old) film response curve, and how to best fiter to partially correct for it.
 

Mike Wilde

Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2006
Messages
2,903
Location
Misissauaga
Format
Multi Format
If only I could type accurately while I am dropping thoughts out of my head onto the screen I could become a useful person in this universe.
 

nworth

Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2005
Messages
2,228
Location
Los Alamos,
Format
Multi Format
Kodak once made a great variety of films and plates for emission spectrography. I have heard about Type 1 and Type 3, but not about the other one. They are quite old, discontinued about the same time Kodak introduced Technical Pan film, I think. According to Kodak pamphlet P-10, "Kodak Materials for Emission Spectrography" (1968):

"Kodak Spectrum Analysis Plates an Films, No. 1, are characterized by moderate sensitivity, very fine granularity, extremely high resolving power, and high contrast. The latter two characteristics, plus low background, make these materials especially suitable for trace element work in the spectral region from 250 to 400 millimicrons, where the instrument speed and light sources are such that a weak spectral line must be distinguished from a heavy continuum of background radiation. These produces are usually preferred for semiquantitative analysis involving visual estimations of the concentrations of unknowns from standard spectra, as well as for precise quantitative work.

"Kodak Spectrum Analysis Plates and Films, No. 3, have moderately high speed, medium contrast emulsion and ample sensitivity for most spectrographic work from 250 to 500 millimicrons. These products are especially recommended for trace-element work (where low densities and relatively low background radiation are encountered); for semiquantitative and quantitative spectrographic analysis when a coverage of a relatively wide concentration range is more important than the extra degree of precision obtainable with the higher-contrast Spectrum Analysis, No. 1, materials. The emulsion for Spectrum Analysis Plates and
films, No. 3, has about twice the speed of the emulsion for Spectrum Analysis Plate and Films, No. 1, products at 300 millimicrons and ata a density of 0.1 above gross fog."

These are quite specialized materials. They are barely orthochromatic, with a fairly sharp cutoff at about 450 nanometers (millimicrons), and extended ultraviolet sensitivity. Their sensitivity is fairly uniform over the range, and the application requires that they have a very straight line characteristic.

Development recommendations for standard processing were 5 minutes for No. 1 and 4 minutes for no. 2 in D-19. These recommendations gave a gamma of about 1 for both films. The No. 3 material has a notably long scale. By reducing the development to 2 minutes in D-19, Type 3 could be developed to a gamma of about 0.7, with a reduction in the possible scale. Lower contrast developers may or may not make there films usable for general scenics.

I haven't the slightest idea of what a camera speed would be for these, but another film 103-o, was said to be the basis for Royal-X Pan. It was about 4 times the speed of Type 1. I would try some very wide bracketing (say 25 to 400) based about EI 100 for Type 1. A lower contrast developer may (may) slow them down by a stop or two, as happened when Technical Pan was used at low contrast.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
OP
OP

Ikon

Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
21
Location
Flanders, BE
Format
Multi Format
Many thanks for all the information ! Now I'm going to start testing...
 

Mike Wilde

Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2006
Messages
2,903
Location
Misissauaga
Format
Multi Format
I am starting to test some old Techical Pan. 25 sheets of 8x10 , dated 1990 for $6, again as a lark for trying old film picked up at a camera swap show last weekend.

I set up a spare Omaga D enlarger head inverted under a Polariod MP-3 copy camera to allow me to dial in 100C+30M (Per Ron Mowrey's idea of tungsten to daylight balance values) as a light source to light my transmission step wedge. I placed the 120 sized step wedge on the DB diffusion box plate, and masked off the area outside of the step wedge as an attempt to cut lens flare. I metered step 9 of 31 on the step wedge with a spot meter to determine the recommended exposure on the 18% grey part of the wedge.

I lined the copy camera head up to give a modest blow up of the 120 neg to copy onto 4x5 size negs.

I used Jason Brunners bellows factor swatch thing posted here a few years ago to figure I needed to add 2 stops for the bellows factor of this set up. I have the scale for his patch marked permanently on the ground glass of the copy camera. It is a most useful idea for dealing with macro style work.

So the computed 1/8" f/8 became 1/2" f/8, presuming that the film, modestly slow to begin with, might still be close to an EI of 25 for continuous tone work.

I cut down a sheet of the 8x10 to 4-4x5's and loaded them into holders. I have experience cutting sheets of RA-4 papers down off of rolls in absolute darkness, so it was not as daunting for me as you may think.

I exposed all 4 film pieces the same, and loaded them into processing hangers, and put the hangers in a daylight tank.

I mixed a low contrast developer: TDLC-103 I think it was called. 1g metol, 5g Na sulfite, 10g Na bicarbonate per litre. I also mixed a 50g per litre Na sulFATE stop bath, per the film development cookbook's suggestion. Then I left the fresh mixed solutions to cool and went to bed, because it was midnight on a weekday night.

I mixed my own developer, because I only have 5 sachets of Technidol LC left, and it is getting ( or rather always was kind of ) scarce. I would rather work on calibrating something I can repeat, and what could be a cheaper developer to make as well. Once I am calibrated I may compare results against the Technidol.

The intent is to develop the film pieces for 5.5, 8, 11 and 16 minutes, by pulling hangers at different times of the 16' run to see how the film looks with varied development, and still let the films feel like they are not being developed in the tank all on thier own. For LF I typically process 4-6 negatives at a time in the daylight tank I have, so this pass is not really a legitimate test of my real world conditions, but instead, as in the last expmple I posted, a first round stab at getting results that can be refined on a future testing run.

I intend to build some curves ala Ralph L's great film testing articles in Way Beyond Monochrome and on his web site, to see how this film is reacting today, and if it is still viable for continuous tone pictorial use.

Ralph recommends exposing 5 sheets for his automated plots spreadsheet, developed 4, 5.5, 8 , 11 and 16 minutes, but I first want to see if the film works, so I only used one 8x10 sheet ot make 4-4x5 sheets.

I plan to drop the shortest of Ralph's times because I suspect we may have fog growth on this old stock, stored I don't know how,that may necessitate using it at a reduced EI rating.

If there is fog growth on this old stock, then there will be a need to develop a bit longer than normal. This added development will I hope allow a longer straight line portion of the HD curve ot be built, in the form of denser highlights. This would allow shadow area density to be safely built, and then would move this thin areas of the information recorded in a negative to sit above the base fog if we want a linear like film & paper tone response.

I hope to be able to provide feedback on this after the weekend. I posted it here as a work in progress to allow you to digest it if you are looking for low contrast developer action on a potentially high contrast film.
 
Photrio.com contains affiliate links to products. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links.
To read our full affiliate disclosure statement please click Here.

PHOTRIO PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Ilford ADOX Freestyle Photographic Stearman Press Weldon Color Lab Blue Moon Camera & Machine
Top Bottom