Kodak Retina Lens Questions

markjwyatt · Jun 6, 2018

I see there are some Kodak Retina experts here. I came across a couple of DTL mount lenses; both Schneider Kreuznach- but neither marked "Retina". I have the 50mm Xenon f1.9. It looks like the standard Retina version of this lens screws apart so the front optics can be replaced to create an 80mm and 100 mm lens. I can find no explicit reference to a non-Retina version of this. I do find a link with a photograph with the same markings as mine, but no explanation. (http://lensbubbles.com/my-favourite-lenses-series-schneider-kreuznach-xenon-50mm-f1-9-dkl/)

Mine has the same markings as the one on the right. I.e. it is a "Xenon" not a "Retina-Xenon".

Anyone know the story behind this? Mine does not seem to easily part.

The other lens is a Schneider-Kreuznach Curtagon 35mm f2.8 (not marked "Retina" either).

Based on the big red banner below, I probably should not mention what I intend (initially) to do with these lenses! But, rest assured, I am interested in film photography also, and could see a Kodak Retina in my future (I like the II and III series).

AgX · Jun 6, 2018

I am quite ignorant on the Retinas, other than that a Retina had been my very first camera. I got no idea what lens it had. But in my ignorance I am surprised to learn that there had been "Retina" lenses at all.

markjwyatt · Jun 6, 2018

AgX said:
I am quite ignorant on the Retinas, other than that a Retina had been my very first camera. I got no idea what lens it had. But in my ignorance I am surprised to learn that there had been "Retina" lenses at all.

Well, if someone learned something, there was some benefit to this thread! I did not about that either until I brought the lenses home and tried to figure out what they were. Another thing with the Retina is that the aperture setting is built into the camera; kind of like Contax/Kiev in which case the focusing mechanism is on the camera (some optical component generally associated with the lens is on the camera). Makes the lens a little less transportable between cameras. For instance with the Retina lenses the adapters to mount their lenses on other cameras need the aperture mechanism built into the adapter and are more expensive than other adapters for that reason.

guangong · Jun 6, 2018

I don’t quite understand your comments about Retina in comparison to Contax. Retina, like almost all folders, has leaf shutter and aperture controls in lens. Except for the B ( my current walking around camera) has a removable front element which is replaced by 35mm and 85mm lens attachments. These were once common with leaf shutter cameras, including SLRs made by Zeiss Ikon and Voightlander. Since Retina used two different lens manufacturers the supplementary lenses were not interchangeable.
Supplementary lenses were sold with a small screw in case for storing the front element of standard lens. Overall a very awkward system. Retina cameras were marketed as the poor (well really middle class) man’s Leica. Well built cameras with one weak point...the ratchet in the winding-cocking system. Contessa, separating cocking and film advance, may in the long run be more durable.
To my knowledge Retina did not make lenses.

GRHazelton · Jun 6, 2018

Chris Sherlock is perhaps the go-to man for Retina. His site http://retinarescue.com/kodakretinarepairservice.html is loaded with info.

Paul Howell · Jun 6, 2018

The Retina S used the same lens as the reflex, those that worked with the S have a cam. Only later models reflex lens have the cam. The S lens do not apart and some are faster. Lens ranged from 28 to 135. The 200 will mount but not couple.

michr · Jun 6, 2018

markjwyatt said:
I see there are some Kodak Retina experts here. I came across a couple of DTL mount lenses; both Schneider Kreuznach- but neither marked "Retina". I have the 50mm Xenon f1.9. It looks like the standard Retina version of this lens screws apart so the front optics can be replaced to create an 80mm and 100 mm lens. I can find no explicit reference to a non-Retina version of this. I do find a link with a photograph with the same markings as mine, but no explanation. (http://lensbubbles.com/my-favourite-lenses-series-schneider-kreuznach-xenon-50mm-f1-9-dkl/)

Mine has the same markings as the one on the right. I.e. it is a "Xenon" not a "Retina-Xenon".

Anyone know the story behind this? Mine does not seem to easily part.

The other lens is a Schneider-Kreuznach Curtagon 35mm f2.8 (not marked "Retina" either).

Based on the big red banner below, I probably should not mention what I intend (initially) to do with these lenses! But, rest assured, I am interested in film photography also, and could see a Kodak Retina in my future (I like the II and III series).

I have the Retina-Xenon 50mm 1.9 and it definitely doesn't screw apart to take multiple elements from other lenses. As far as I know, no DKL mount lenses did that, and even then it was a bayonet mount, only the lenses for some of the folding and non-folding bodies took the interchangeable front elements. Good luck on solving the mystery of the lens. The DKL mount is not mutually compatible across the different brands of camera, there were minor variations of slots on the tabs on the mount. It would be best if you'd post a picture of the mount side of your lens. I'm sure the knowledgeable people could better help you with that information. My first inclination is to say it's a Voigtlander lens, because those didn't usually have the camera prefix, but I don't know if Schneider even made DKL mount lenses for those cameras.

markjwyatt · Jun 6, 2018

nusproizvodjac said:
Retina and Kiev, aside from being rangefinder cameras have nothing in common. Well, almost nothing.
Kiev has a vertically travelling metal shutter, and the Retina has a leaf shutter incorporated between the lens elements. Behind the front element are the shutter leaves, and behind them the aperture leaves, and finally the rear lens element.
So basically if you remove the lens, you remove the shutter and aperture assembly, which is not the case with Kiev.

The Retina-Kiev comment was an aside. I should have skipped it. Basically, I was just pointing out that like the Kiev/Contax, having some of the lens functions built into the camera makes the lens less adaptable to other cameras. I would say to keep this post clear, we should just end that thread here.

markjwyatt · Jun 6, 2018

michr said:
I have the Retina-Xenon 50mm 1.9 and it definitely doesn't screw apart to take multiple elements from other lenses. As far as I know, no DKL mount lenses did that, and even then it was a bayonet mount, only the lenses for some of the folding and non-folding bodies took the interchangeable front elements. Good luck on solving the mystery of the lens. The DKL mount is not mutually compatible across the different brands of camera, there were minor variations of slots on the tabs on the mount. It would be best if you'd post a picture of the mount side of your lens. I'm sure the knowledgeable people could better help you with that information. My first inclination is to say it's a Voigtlander lens, because those didn't usually have the camera prefix, but I don't know if Schneider even made DKL mount lenses for those cameras.

I think this explains part of it: (in fact the entire thread is helpful)
https://www.flickr.com/groups/359512@N21/discuss/72157629389111105/72157629408067381

"I think there is still some confusion about the lenses:
The IIa does not have a changeable lens, the IIc is the first model to have a "convertable" lens it is called convertable because you only change part of the lens and part stays fixed in the camera body.
Not until the Retina Reflex S did there appear the DKL mount full interchangeable lenses that can be used on any camera you can mount them to, Note that the Retina IIIS requires a coupling that not all DKL mount lenses have: not even all Kodak Retina lens.
Yeah it gets confusing!
Jay"

So maybe the "Retina-Xenon" and "Xenon" are more or less the same. Maybe the "Retina-Xenon" has the rangefinder coupling built-in while the :"Xenon" does not. As I said, I have the "Xenon" and it appears to be a DKL mount. The picture I showed in the OP shows the differences from a front view, but not rear, but ostensibly, both are DKL mount lenses. I will get some pictures an upload them.

In this picture later in the same thread, you see the "Retina-Xenon" has a rangefinder coupling mechanism (the long slot). Mine does not have that. (use link- photo will not show; the third photo in the linked post)

Dead Link Removed

choiliefan · Jun 6, 2018

Perhaps the mystery lens is from the 126 Instamatic Reflex?

MattKing · Jun 6, 2018

choiliefan said:
Perhaps the mystery lens is from the 126 Instamatic Reflex?

+1

markjwyatt · Jun 6, 2018

choiliefan said:
Perhaps the mystery lens is from the 126 Instamatic Reflex?

According to this link, the Instamatic uses the "Retina-Xenon" option (See Table titled, "Retina Type 'S' Lenses"). The information provided by this reference is likely not comprehensive.

EDIT: found a picture of an Instamatic with this lens

Kodak Instamatic Reflex 01 by J Jakobson, on Flickr

Paul Howell · Jun 6, 2018

Steven Grady's site Camera Quest has a competitive review of the III S. Mo

markjwyatt · Jun 6, 2018

Here are pics of the two lenses. Both mounts are the same visually. I can swap lenses in the plastic mounts as confirmation also.

albada · Jun 7, 2018

Among different manufacturers, these DKL mounts are identical EXCEPT for a tab that differs for each manufacturer. The sole purpose of that tab is to prevent lenses of one brand from being mounted on a competitor's camera. However, if you grind off the tab with a Dremel, or grind a notch in your body's mount, then you can cross brands. I've done this between Voigtlander and Retina.

Mark Overton

markjwyatt · Oct 23, 2019

Just as an aside, I am studying Schneider lenses (and adding to my DKL collection), and came across this great article on the history of the Xenon.

https://www.casualphotophile.com/2019/03/10/xenon-lens-history/

The Xenon was Schneider's answer to the Sonnar. It is a double Gauss. So in terms of development Double Gauss --> Xen"on" __> Nokt"on" plus Ultr"on" --> CZ Planar (for the Contax SLR).

Lot of other interesting stuff in the article such as the Leitz Summilux 50mm F/1.5 (of 1959) appears to be evolution of the Xenon design (added Lanthanum glass).

Kodak Retina Lens Questions

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