Kodak Reintroduces Ektachrome.

Diapositivo · Jan 21, 2018

Prest_400 said:
A few days ago I watched a video of a tour of a Minuteman missile silo control center, and there was a moment where the guide mentions "These are the computers that control the missiles, your phone has got much more power than them but these remain unhackable as most of their language has been forgotten".

You must have seen this video on Focus
Whatever programming language cannot be "forgotten", it's written in manuals. It's not like making film. It's really much much much easier.
Besides, I cannot believe that a nuclear weapon system can be kept in such a poor state of maintenance. All aspects of the system certainly must be modifiable, and have probably been modified since their entrance into service.
Computers which drive missiles are not hackable simply because they are not connected to world networks such as Internet. You must have physical access to them.
Yes, that must have been on Focus! (or on Discovery channel, same quality).

trendland · Jan 21, 2018

cmacd123 said:
Yep ETERNA and friends, also a very nice looking stock.

The AGFA had a look very simalar to the Agfa still films. I was looking at a video of "do they know it's christmas, and thought to myself, that looks like AGFA, and sure enough Agfa was one of the folks credited in the end credits as providing supplies to do the video. video is here, but the credits are missing:

Agfa Motion Picture films wasn't so bad but many cinematographers don't wanted to wirk with it.
IF I remember 85% used Kodak and just 15% loved Fuji.
And later there was no way with Agfa Cine Film
with regards

Young He · Jan 21, 2018

I look forward to ektachrome. I'm too young to have shot it in its prime (haha young geddit) but it seems like a nice experience. I seem to be a year late with this comment.
Super 8 users: how does one process 50 feet of film whilst still keeping temperature? Black and white is cool and all, but I would like some glorious vivid color in my super 8.

AgX · Jan 21, 2018

trendland said:
PS : Fuji discontinued all motion picture films inkluding Eterna - series 2003/2003.

Not quite true.
Fuji still offer a 35mm b&w cine negative film for making colour seperations.

twelvetone12 · Jan 21, 2018

Diapositivo said:
Whatever programming language cannot be "forgotten", it's written in manuals. It's not like making film. It's really much much much easier.

Dunno. My experience as software engineer is that current code is an undocumented mess, legacy code is an undocumented nightmare. Now think of a custom built machine, with many custom made modifications - some documented, some not - with a set of incomplete manuals that represent a state of the hardware/software which is different in many small details on the running implementation you have at hand, software written in an obscure dialect of an obscure language from 40 years ago, that compiles to an obscure partially documented machine code for a custom architecture that has no resemblance to anything you can find today. Brr!

keenmaster486 · Jan 21, 2018

twelvetone12 said:
legacy code is an undocumented nightmare. Now think of a custom built machine, with many custom made modifications - some documented, some not - with a set of incomplete manuals that represent a state of the hardware/software which is different in many small details on the running implementation you have at hand, software written in an obscure dialect of an obscure language from 40 years ago, that compiles to an obscure partially documented machine code for a custom architecture that has no resemblance to anything you can find today. Brr!

Yes, true -

And yet! Scores of hobbyists often keep the flame alive, or resurrect it in some cases.

Back to the computer analogy, check out these forums:

www.vogons.org

Here, as in other places, several people obsessed with old, obsolete computers share and propagate all the knowledge required to keep these machines running.

A few members have even begun producing, in small production runs, new parts for these old machines! (For instance, a newly produced clone of a popular sound card from the early 90's, which was incredibly complicated to replicate, is now being manufactured in small quantities)

I firmly believe the same thing will happen with film photography. Long after the mainstream companies have given up on film (when and if they do), the spirit will live on and not even the most difficult challenge will not be overcome by the analog community in some way. As long as people still want to shoot film, it will exist, and it will be used, and it will be preserved.

trendland · Jan 21, 2018

AgX said:
Not quite true.
Fuji still offer a 35mm b&w cine negative film for making colour seperations.

Ok - I did not realize.
So Fuji is still offering bw cine film.
with regards

trendland · Jan 21, 2018

keenmaster486 said:
Yes, true -

And yet! Scores of hobbyists often keep the flame alive, or resurrect it in some cases.

Back to the computer analogy, check out these forums:

www.vogons.org

Here, as in other places, several people obsessed with old, obsolete computers share and propagate all the knowledge required to keep these machines running.

A few members have even begun producing, in small production runs, new parts for these old machines! (For instance, a newly produced clone of a popular sound card from the early 90's, which was incredibly complicated to replicate, is now being manufactured in small quantities)

I firmly believe the same thing will happen with film photography. Long after the mainstream companies have given up on film (when and if they do), the spirit will live on and not even the most difficult challenge will not be overcome by the analog community in some way. As long as people still want to shoot film, it will exist, and it will be used, and it will be preserved.

A little bit off topic ........?

with regards

PS : So as we A L L - only sometimes

keenmaster486 · Jan 21, 2018

trendland said:
A little bit off topic ........?

Only a little bit =)

Sirius Glass · Jan 21, 2018

Diapositivo said:
You must have seen this video on Focus
Whatever programming language cannot be "forgotten", it's written in manuals. It's not like making film. It's really much much much easier.
Besides, I cannot believe that a nuclear weapon system can be kept in such a poor state of maintenance. All aspects of the system certainly must be modifiable, and have probably been modified since their entrance into service.
Computers which drive missiles are not hackable simply because they are not connected to world networks such as Internet. You must have physical access to them.
Yes, that must have been on Focus! (or on Discovery channel, same quality).

twelvetone12 said:
Dunno. My experience as software engineer is that current code is an undocumented mess, legacy code is an undocumented nightmare. Now think of a custom built machine, with many custom made modifications - some documented, some not - with a set of incomplete manuals that represent a state of the hardware/software which is different in many small details on the running implementation you have at hand, software written in an obscure dialect of an obscure language from 40 years ago, that compiles to an obscure partially documented machine code for a custom architecture that has no resemblance to anything you can find today. Brr!

The language manuals exist but the compilers may not be available on the target machine. When a computer language becomes unused it becomes very difficult to find high quality qualified personnel to do the maintenance, because it does not add to their resume and takes time away from growing into the latest software advances. Twelvetone12 nailed it.

Photo Engineer · Jan 21, 2018

The Apple ][ was thoroughly documented with masses of books on programming in machine coded and the two BASIC languages. Even the Ohio Scientific computers were well known back then. I have a friend who has the Apple OS running on his Lisa!

PE

MattKing · Jan 21, 2018

I'm fairly keen on Linux myself, in a "interested in playing/working with it" sort of way.
The problem with using no anti-virus/anti-malware software of some sort is that we live in a world where people share a lot of stuff. If you don't monitor the stuff you receive and share, then you may very well be sharing stuff that is likely to cause problems with the non-Linux world out there.
It is a problem that presents itself in different ways to people using different operating systems. But given how much Linux (and Unix) is used for servers, than I would suggest that it is only prudent to take care with what may be stored on and distributed using those Linux systems.

cmacd123 · Jan 21, 2018

Sarath said:
Where can I find this film?

Back in History I am afraid. Fuji dropped the Movie line several years ago, and the AGfa Movie Camera film was phased out more like at least a decade ago by now.

Movies in ECN2 colour require the Kodak Touch these days. Even back then trying to use them for stills was an uphill technical battle.

cmacd123 · Jan 21, 2018

Wayne said:
The following is a partial list of known Linux malware. However, few if any are in the wild, and most have been rendered obsolete by Linux updates or were never a threat."

The trick with Linux is that the developers HATE malware, and so when it is discovered they update the software to get rid on the problem. MY computer checks every day and lets me know when something needs to be updated.

Wayne · Jan 22, 2018

MattKing said:
I'm fairly keen on Linux myself, in a "interested in playing/working with it" sort of way.
The problem with using no anti-virus/anti-malware software of some sort is that we live in a world where people share a lot of stuff. If you don't monitor the stuff you receive and share, then you may very well be sharing stuff that is likely to cause problems with the non-Linux world out there.
It is a problem that presents itself in different ways to people using different operating systems. But given how much Linux (and Unix) is used for servers, than I would suggest that it is only prudent to take care with what may be stored on and distributed using those Linux systems.

So the Linux world should run malware checks to keep the Windows world safe from things that came from and can only harm the Windows world? While I can certainly understand your desire to remain free of malware, I can't agree with that sentiment. Plus you really don't have to worry about it if take your own advice, and you are running that software yourself.

keenmaster486 · Jan 22, 2018

Wayne said:
So the Linux world should run malware checks to keep the Windows world safe from things that came from and can only harm the Windows world? While I can certainly understand your desire to remain free of malware, I can't agree with that sentiment. Plus you really don't have to worry about it if take your own advice, and you are running that software yourself.

My opinion is, this only makes sense with web servers.

MattKing · Jan 22, 2018

Wayne said:
So the Linux world should run malware checks to keep the Windows world safe from things that came from and can only harm the Windows world? While I can certainly understand your desire to remain free of malware, I can't agree with that sentiment. Plus you really don't have to worry about it if take your own advice, and you are running that software yourself.

Yes - everybody should be diligent about keeping malware from spreading.
There is a lot of sharing of files between the various "worlds". Just ask any Linux user who is also into anything like gaming or any activity where there is important platform specific software that doesn't have a Linux version.
As an example, In my former law office we used a Windows package for law office administration and client file maintenance that had no Linux version. At the time there was no comparable Linux based product (and nothing really as effective in the Mac world either).
While all our individual computers were Windows based, our within firm network was for many years a Unix based one. That network was kept isolated (as much as possible) from the internet. There was certainly no regular or automatic patches or updates.
If I were setting up something similar now, one of the real options would be to use Linux instead of Unix. A structure like that would be very attractive to those who seek to profit from malware.

Diapositivo · Jan 22, 2018

Sirius Glass said:
The language manuals exist but the compilers may not be available on the target machine. When a computer language becomes unused it becomes very difficult to find high quality qualified personnel to do the maintenance, because it does not add to their resume and takes time away from growing into the latest software advances. Twelvetone12 nailed it.

Well, I disagree. We are talking military installations here. With the resource of military budgets you can build any kind of electronics and compile any kind of compilers. You are not supposed to change hardware and to change "target machine" in a military installation. If you do, you have the resources to do whatever.

In professional computing AS/400 are still widely used and maintained, including all the code and the compilers (which are nothing else than programs themselves). In terms of consumer electronic they are pre-history, in term of professional application they work and that's all. Military budgets allow the non-discontinuation of every part which has a military significance.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if 68000 processors of military grade were still in production, or in ample stock for a long time. Programming languages like COBOL are still widely in use in the applications where they had their origins (such as banking).
The fact that handgun were invented doesn't mean that bows are not maintainable any more.

Seen it from another perspective, if what the documentary says was true, that would mean that the entire Minuteman ballistic system would become useless if a software modification were required. Imagine that as an US taxpayer. It's like saying that a car becomes unuseable because you don't find the air filter anymore. And it's not a car, it's a ballistic atomic system, something very, very, very costly and pretty much important.

Film is probably the only "art" which can really be "lost".

twelvetone12 · Jan 22, 2018

Yes is can be done, but it does not mean it is done or that it is done consistently. There are many arts like film that can be easily lost.

Prest_400 · Jan 22, 2018

Sirius Glass said:
The language manuals exist but the compilers may not be available on the target machine. When a computer language becomes unused it becomes very difficult to find high quality qualified personnel to do the maintenance, because it does not add to their resume and takes time away from growing into the latest software advances. Twelvetone12 nailed it.

Diapositivo said:
Seen it from another perspective, if what the documentary says was true, that would mean that the entire Minuteman ballistic system would become useless if a software modification were required. Imagine that as an US taxpayer. It's like saying that a car becomes unuseable because you don't find the air filter anymore. And it's not a car, it's a ballistic atomic system, something very, very, very costly and pretty much important.

Film is probably the only "art" which can really be "lost".

Let me grab the original source, which is of a tour of a decommisioned Minuteman facility. (Minute 32:41) I can guess that there are some differences compared to what is still in use, and perhaps the claim for "nobody knowing the machine language anymore" is to deter counterespionage. Probably it is a bit overstated, The Department of defense must have it all sorted.
On the other hand, it is quite a feat of engineering and shows a facet of the cold war that I had not seen before. There are active facilities like this in a few countries...

Anyways I prefer to think about B38 churning out Ektachrome at this time of writing. I saw there was an update about the Kodak $2K Super8 as well.

Wayne · Jan 22, 2018

MattKing said:
Yes - everybody should be diligent about keeping malware from spreading.
There is a lot of sharing of files between the various "worlds". Just ask any Linux user who is also into anything like gaming or any activity where there is important platform specific software that doesn't have a Linux version.
As an example, In my former law office we used a Windows package for law office administration and client file maintenance that had no Linux version. At the time there was no comparable Linux based product (and nothing really as effective in the Mac world either).
While all our individual computers were Windows based, our within firm network was for many years a Unix based one. That network was kept isolated (as much as possible) from the internet. There was certainly no regular or automatic patches or updates.
If I were setting up something similar now, one of the real options would be to use Linux instead of Unix. A structure like that would be very attractive to those who seek to profit from malware.

Unfortunately what you are looking for aint gonna happen. I'm looking for a good analogy but can't find one, but its kind of like expecting other drivers to stay off the road because your car doesn't have air bags.
Its unrealistic. You have to protect yourself. The Linux forums I'm on don't even have security sub-forums, and won't create them because it creates a false impression that its necessary. I'll propose they create one to protect Windows users, and see how quickly I get laughed off the board.

keenmaster486 · Jan 22, 2018

Wayne said:
I'm looking for a good analogy but can't find one, but its kind of like expecting other drivers to stay off the road because your car doesn't have air bags.

More like requesting the other drivers to be extra careful lest they bump your fragile Microsoft Car off the road.

Until Microsoft goes down in flames when the general public realizes the potential of Linux, the problem will persist. It is due to ignorance more than anything else.

Cholentpot · Jan 22, 2018

keenmaster486 said:
More like requesting the other drivers to be extra careful lest they bump your fragile Microsoft Car off the road.

Until Microsoft goes down in flames when the general public realizes the potential of Linux, the problem will persist. It is due to ignorance more than anything else.

I've used Linux in the past. Nice and all but there's a reason why the masses stick to Microsoft.

MattKing · Jan 22, 2018

keenmaster486 said:
More like requesting the other drivers to be extra careful lest they bump your fragile Microsoft Car off the road.

Until Microsoft goes down in flames when the general public realizes the potential of Linux, the problem will persist. It is due to ignorance more than anything else.

I agree about potential, but assure you that Linux will remain a tiny niche unless and until it permits better integration with Windows and Mac users' needs.
Sort of like film .

Sirius Glass · Jan 22, 2018

Diapositivo said:
Well, I disagree. We are talking military installations here. With the resource of military budgets you can build any kind of electronics and compile any kind of compilers. You are not supposed to change hardware and to change "target machine" in a military installation. If you do, you have the resources to do whatever.

In professional computing AS/400 are still widely used and maintained, including all the code and the compilers (which are nothing else than programs themselves). In terms of consumer electronic they are pre-history, in term of professional application they work and that's all. Military budgets allow the non-discontinuation of every part which has a military significance.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if 68000 processors of military grade were still in production, or in ample stock for a long time. Programming languages like COBOL are still widely in use in the applications where they had their origins (such as banking).
The fact that handgun were invented doesn't mean that bows are not maintainable any more.

Seen it from another perspective, if what the documentary says was true, that would mean that the entire Minuteman ballistic system would become useless if a software modification were required. Imagine that as an US taxpayer. It's like saying that a car becomes unuseable because you don't find the air filter anymore. And it's not a car, it's a ballistic atomic system, something very, very, very costly and pretty much important.

Film is probably the only "art" which can really be "lost".

And I have been on military projects that had to rewrite all the software because there were no compilers available for the target machines. One had to know both computer languages and operating systems much better than reading from a book. In fact one had to be an expert in both the old and new languages and operating systems.

Kodak Reintroduces Ektachrome.

Diapositivo

trendland

Young He

AgX

twelvetone12

keenmaster486

trendland

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keenmaster486

Sirius Glass

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MattKing

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Wayne

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MattKing

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Diapositivo

twelvetone12

Prest_400

Wayne

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Cholentpot

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Kodak Reintroduces Ektachrome.

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