Kodak RA-4 chemistry -- need for starter?

warrennn · Nov 21, 2010

I purchased the 10L Kodak chemicals for RA-4 printing and noticed that the developer comes in three bottles: parts A, B and C. The directions on one of the bottles are to mix all three components and add water to make up 10L of solution. The Kodak datasheet J39 gives directions for mixing 1L of material and this requires a starter solution in addition to the other three components.

My question is: will anything bad happen if I skip the starter and just mix 0.1 of each solution (and water) to make up 1L solutions of developer? Essentially, this is what I would do if I mixed the entire bottles -- I would obtain 10 L of developer and use 1 L at a time (for the 15-40 prints allowed with the 1L baths, which are very convenient for my 8x10 trays).

Thanks.

Warren Nagourney

markbarendt · Nov 21, 2010

Works fine.

warrennn · Nov 21, 2010

Thanks, Mark (also thanks for the link to Liberty for the e6 chems).

Warren

markbarendt · Nov 21, 2010

My pleasure.

perkeleellinen · Nov 22, 2010

A little info from PE on the starter: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

markbarendt · Nov 22, 2010

PE also said somewhere (paraphrased here by me) that the basic reason for starter is to make fresh developer look/act like replenished developer.

Its a matter of maintaining consistent output in a production system.

If you are maintaining a mini-lab machine after 1000's upon 1000's upon 1000's of sheets through the replenished system you may come to a point where you want to change out the chemicals.

The starter helps the fresh developer act like developer that has had a few (hundred) sheets run through it.

Is that important at home in my lab or yours?

warrennn · Nov 22, 2010

Well, without starter, I tried my first print tonight on Fuji CA glossy and it was nearly perfect -- beginner's luck.

My enlarger settings were M40, Y40, f/16 and 2 sec exposure on an LPL 760. I understand that 25CC corresponds to 1/4 stop, so I can increase the time by dialing in more Y and M. I compared the print to a commercial one (digital, on Kodak royal) and the colors look exactly the same. I used a Kodak circular sheet with a range of ND filters (in about 10 wedges) to determine the initial exposure.

The development was 2 min developer, 30 sec stop bath and 2 min blix.

I must say, RA-4 processing is incredibly inexpensive compared to commercial and particularly ilfochrome (which I will probably never do). The 8x11 paper is $0.30 / sheet and the chems last a long time, from what I have heard. The stuff is also currently available, unlike E6 (I stocked up on 5 E6 kits).

Thanks for your help.

Warren N

markbarendt · Nov 23, 2010

warrennn said:
Well, without starter, I tried my first print tonight on Fuji CA glossy and it was nearly perfect -- beginner's luck.

Good job.

warrennn said:
My enlarger settings were M40, Y40, f/16 and 2 sec exposure on an LPL 760. I understand that 25CC corresponds to 1/4 stop, so I can increase the time by dialing in more Y and M. I compared the print to a commercial one (digital, on Kodak royal) and the colors look exactly the same. I used a Kodak circular sheet with a range of ND filters (in about 10 wedges) to determine the initial exposure.

Adding or reducing M & Y will dictate a change in exposure but it also changes the color that's printed. It is not an easy ND filter. You would need to balance all three to make this work.

Printing bigger helps slow things down.

warrennn said:
The development was 2 min developer, 30 sec stop bath and 2 min blix.

My times vary depending on temperature, @ 75 degrees 3:20, 80 2:25, 85 1:40, and my favorite 90 for 1:10. Stop is 10-15 seconds at any temp. Blix @ 75-80 1:30, 85-90 1:00.

For washing I do a quick 15-30 second wash to "knock the big chunks off" followed by 1:30 in a cleaner bath.

warrennn said:
I must say, RA-4 processing is incredibly inexpensive

Yes it is.

pentaxuser · Nov 23, 2010

warrennn said:
The development was 2 min developer, 30 sec stop bath and 2 min blix.

Warren N

What was your temp for 2 mins? I was expecting the reply of about 70F but then I saw Mark's time which is 3mins 20secs for 75F and this threw me a bit.

I had thought but I might have recalled it wrongly that PE only uses 2 mins at 70F.

It's nice to be able to process at room temp but 3mins 20 secs is quite long per print if you are doing a series of 5x7s.

pentaxuser

perkeleellinen · Nov 23, 2010

Is the Fuji paper faster than the Kodak? 2 seconds @f16 seems extremely fast. My prints are typically 8-10 seconds @f8 when printing 5x7.

markbarendt · Nov 23, 2010

pentaxuser said:
What was your temp for 2 mins? I was expecting the reply of about 70F but then I saw Mark's time which is 3mins 20secs for 75F and this threw me a bit.

I had thought but I might have recalled it wrongly that PE only uses 2 mins at 70F.

It's nice to be able to process at room temp but 3mins 20 secs is quite long per print if you are doing a series of 5x7s.

pentaxuser

Before I found a JOBO I used a water bath and an old heating pad I had laying around to keep the chemicals warmer.

The chemicals go to completion so perfect timing isn't really needed, it's not like developing film. Whatever you do consistent time and temp will help get consistent results.

If you are doing a series where you know the right settings for the enlarger you can expose a whole set using a paper safe or some old packaging from a previous batch of paper to keep exposed sheets protected.

When you are done with the enlarger develop the prints in batches.

pentaxuser · Nov 23, 2010

Thanks Mark. I have a need( not necessarily rational) to see the results on each print as I do them but thinking about it I could always do two 5x7 at once in a Nova slot or a Jobo drum with dividers.

pentaxuser

warrennn · Nov 23, 2010

My temperature was 68 degrees F (20 C) -- as mentioned above people knowledgeable about the chemistry have suggested 2 min development time at this temperature.

I agree that the exposure time was (perhaps inconveniently) short, but as Mark indicated, larger prints will slow things down (the brightness follows the inverse square law, so going from 8x8 to 11x11 is about one stop).

Warren N

pentaxuser · Nov 23, 2010

warrennn said:
My temperature was 68 degrees F (20 C) -- as mentioned above people knowledgeable about the chemistry have suggested 2 min development time at this temperature.

Warren N

Thanks. If your prints are OK at 2 mins and now I think I recalled PE's time of 2 mins correctly I wonder what 3mins 20secs does to the print. I am assuming it effectively does nothing otherwise Mark's prints at 3 mins 20 secs would look wrong to him.

Maybe it completes at 2 mins and 1 min 20 secs extra makes little or no difference in the same way that if 1 min B&W print dev is correct, an extra 30 secs( same 50% extra) makes very little difference.

pentaxuser

warrennn · Nov 23, 2010

I believe you are correct with your last supposition: the process goes to completion in ~2 min, so an additional 1:20 would have little effect. I have gleaned this from the various forums, but am not a photo-chemist, so take it with a grain of salt.

Warren N

brucemuir · Nov 25, 2010

Warren, can you share which exact type of Fuji CA you are using at 20c?

Thanks.

warrennn · Nov 25, 2010

Hi Bruce,

The label on the box is: "Fuji Crystal Archive Super Type C glossy". Below this, there is a number (opposite the size numbers): 150. Hope this helps.

Happy thanksgiving,

Warren N

brucemuir · Nov 25, 2010

Thanks for that info Warren.
I've only used the older iterations (P II?) of CA and was wondering how the Super Type C behaved at lower temps and exposed with an enlarger.

It appears that paper is optimized for laser exposure but it's good to know you can use it with an enlarger with good results.

warrennn · Nov 26, 2010

I didn't know this paper is optimized for laser exposure -- the literature says that it is suitable for both optical and digital printing.

I am delighted with the results. I was lucky in my enlarger (an LPL 760) settings. I started with Y40, M40 and this seems to be exactly correct. About a year ago I took some photos (with my 501cm) of one of the several picturesque mountains we have here in the pacific northwest (Mt. Shuksan) and had a commercial lab print them (digitally, of course). I was not pleased with the results and decided to never use C41 for any of my stuff but to stick with E6 (Velvia).

When I got the LPL enlarger, I printed the C41 (Fuji NPS) negatives and they are breathtaking in some cases. Very saturated and vibrant colors, a little like Velvia. The price is good also: $.35/print for 8x8 and $.78 for 11x11. (I like the square format).

Cheers,

Warren N

mikecnichols · Nov 30, 2010

markbarendt said:
Good job.

Adding or reducing M & Y will dictate a change in exposure but it also changes the color that's printed. It is not an easy ND filter. You would need to balance all three to make this work.

Printing bigger helps slow things down.

My times vary depending on temperature, @ 75 degrees 3:20, 80 2:25, 85 1:40, and my favorite 90 for 1:10. Stop is 10-15 seconds at any temp. Blix @ 75-80 1:30, 85-90 1:00.

For washing I do a quick 15-30 second wash to "knock the big chunks off" followed by 1:30 in a cleaner bath.

Yes it is.

I'm about to start doing RA4 processing, and am trying to figure everything out. For ease of use and experimentation, I'm using Ultrafine 8x10 papers with the Arista RA4 2L kit. I won't get to start for another 2 weeks, but would like to have "theory" down before practice. I understand Developer and blix, but I'm not sure what to use for a stop bath. I'm assuming water is the bath since it is before the blix. I want to make sure of this as I want to make sure I have all the correct chemicals if I need more than the Dev and blix. I do have B&W chems too, if they are interchangeable in this process (though I am doubting this is the case). Thanks for any help.

warrennn · Nov 30, 2010

Mike,

The Kodak docs call for a 2.8% acetic acid stop bath between the developer and blix. I buy white vinegar (5% acetic acid) from the supermarket and dilute it with a roughly equal amount of water. At room temperature I use a 30 second stop bath and have had no streaking, which can occur if one goes directly from developer to blix.

Good luck.

Warren Nagourney

EdSawyer · Nov 30, 2010

You can go from dev to blix with no problems, really. I used to do that all the time when tube processing with Ciba drums/roller/etc. I have my fujimoto CP-31 set up that way too (dev straight to blix) and no streaks or other weird stuff so far (200+ prints)

-Ed

Photo Engineer · Nov 30, 2010

You need the starter for C41 to keep the film contrast right, but with paper, it really just changes the balance a bit. So, if you are throwing the developer out after every use and are not replenishing, then you don't need starter. In fact, I use the Replenisher.

I don't suggest going into the blix with no stop. You can get streaks and stains. The stop also removes excess color developer and improves image keeping.

PE

mikecnichols · Nov 30, 2010

Thanks y'all...that's perfect as white vinegar is a staple down in our laundry area which is adjacent to my darkroom processing table. Be perfect for a bath.

darkroom_rookie · Nov 30, 2010

Maybe this can be of further help:

These chemicals are same as Tetenal Art.No. 104580 (CD-R) and 104576 (BX), which is what I use.

d_rookie

Kodak RA-4 chemistry -- need for starter?

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