Kodak Professional Portra 400

michaelbsc · Sep 15, 2010

CGW said:
wblynch said:

I see photography as having two parts. The capture side and the presentation side.

The vast majority of us are engaged in the capture side. To use all our wonderful traditional cameras and lenses, we use and embrace film.

But most film camera users never had a darkroom for printing and developing.

Here we are allowed to talk never ending about the joys of using our 'analog' cameras and organic film but we are forbidden from talking about alternative presentation of those images except for traditional methods which most of us never knew. Slide projection is as close as most of us will ever get.

So we pretend to not talk about the scanning side for fear of chastisement.

The 'sister' site for hybrid activities is, unfortunately, not as well visited or updated as APUG.

Isn't this all rather silly?

Click to expand...

Amen. It's the survivalist tone that occasionally gets over-amped here that's indeed silly. I love film for capture but downstream? It's whatever works to fulfill your vision for the image. Looking forward to Portra 400.

I concur that there is an occasional "Woe is me" feeling when talking about film's impending doom, but I think that's as wrong headed as it sounds like you think it is.

Assuming that film will find its niche in what it does best, and that silver-paper/ink-jet will find their niches at what they do best, there's room for everyone.

I believe your dichotomy of capture vs. presentation is valid. After all, for both B&W and color negative film no one except us toads in the darkroom looks at it. The presentation is everything. Transparencies are somewhat different, but as you mentioned, how many people give real slide shows these days?

Like most, I have a small flatbed scanner. Some others have more sophisticated ones. And I'll scan things as I fancy. After all, it's pretty hard to email the family silver prints of the last gathering. But in the main, I print in a darkroom and give the prints to family and friends at birthdays and holidays. Why? For the same reason some folks like ham sandwiches and others prefer bean soup: because there's no accounting for tastes, and I like the darkroom. I guess it's more like why does your mother knit you a sweater when you can buy one at Walmart cheaper tonight and have it in 30 minutes rather than weeks or months.

In defense of the decision to split the Hybrid Photo site apart, a decision in which I have no stake nor did I have/want input in the decision (it happened right after I showed up here, and I'm just another bloke who posts stuff), it makes sense to me that the chemically oriented process are so fundamentally different from the digital processes that the two are separate beasts.

Is there a lot of overlap between them that perhaps should be considered mutual territory, like color theory, composition skill, suggestions for contrast modifications or local lightening (dodging) or darkening (burning) that could be fair game for both camps? You bet there are. But that would take a mature audience who can stay above the fray of mine vs. yours. Just look at some of the flame wars on other sites.

Can we at APUG be counted on to act like adults instead of children? Man, I sure would like to think so. After all, the idea is what works best for the image, not what process is used to produce it.

Too many paragraphs. Maybe this is $0.04 instead of only two.

Michael

Photo Engineer · Sep 15, 2010

Well, for one, Wegmans markets dropped both minilabs and kiosks from their entire chain of stores. They wanted a greater percentage and Kodak refused and so the units were dropped. Wegmans now features meaningless junk in that area of our local stores.

PE

DanielStone · Sep 15, 2010

hey guys,

I sent an email out to Kodak last night, and had this waiting in my inbox this morning:

" Hi Dan,

Thank you for taking the time to let us know how you feel about the replacement of the Kodak Professional Portra 400NC and 400VC Films with the NEW Kodak Professional Portra 400 Film.

We do agree that the majority of film today is scanned, and we took the opportunity to optimize this new film specifically for that purpose and produced a finer grain film with the lower contrast for improved image detail retention.

With respect to availability of this film in 8x10 and/or 5x7, unfortunately, the demand for 5x7 in color negative, as well as 8x10 in 400 specifically, has not been enough for us to offer these sizes on an ongoing basis. However, you might check with your dealer(s) of Kodak Professional products, like B&H Photo (800-947-9980) and Badger Graphics (ph. 920-766-9332), for them to work with their Kodak Professional Account Representative to see if they can put a special order together. The minimum order is generally about $15,000 worth of a particular product.

Please let us know if you have future questions on this or other of our Kodak Professional products.

Sincerely,
Peter V.
Kodak Professional
Technical Support
800-242-2424 ext. 19 "

-Dan

lxdude · Sep 15, 2010

waynecrider said:
"Consumer Digital Imaging Group second-quarter sales were $447 million, compared with $503 million in the prior-year quarter. Second-quarter loss from operations for the segment was $110 million, compared with a loss of $99 million in the year-ago quarter. This decrease in earnings was largely driven by the expiration of a significant Retail Systems Solutions customer contract..."

I wonder who dropped them?

I noticed recently that Walmart put in a bunch of Fuji DIY machines, and there's no Kodak film at all.
I don't know if that's it but maybe it is.

lxdude · Sep 15, 2010

DanielStone said:
...you might check with your dealer(s) of Kodak Professional products, like B&H Photo (800-947-9980) and Badger Graphics (ph. 920-766-9332), for them to work with their Kodak Professional Account Representative to see if they can put a special order together. The minimum order is generally about $15,000 worth of a particular product.

Please let us know if you have future questions on this or other of our Kodak Professional products.

Sincerely,
Peter V.
Kodak Professional
Technical Support
800-242-2424 ext. 19 "

If a large company like Kodak is willing to do an occasional special order for $15,000, of which only some percentage is profit, I don't think it's fair for anyone to say that Kodak doesn't care about film users. Most large companies can't be bothered with amounts that small, considering it more trouble than it's worth. It shows that the "corporate mentality" is not all-pervasive at EK.

MaximusM3 · Sep 15, 2010

DanielStone said:
hey guys,

"

We do agree that the majority of film today is scanned, and we took the opportunity to optimize this new film specifically for that purpose and produced a finer grain film with the lower contrast for improved image detail retention.

Sincerely,
Peter V.
Kodak Professional
Technical Support
800-242-2424 ext. 19 "

-Dan

Well, just like I've said, and it pretty much sums it up for me. This is who they have to cater to if they want to keep selling film. Black & white is not quite in the same boat but close.

2F/2F · Sep 15, 2010

If all it takes to get a special order made is $15,000, film demand must be EXTREMELY low for them to axe a product entirely. $15,000 is nothing.

Photo Engineer · Sep 15, 2010

Remember that an 8x10 or 5x7 special order can be cut from a master roll intended for 4x5. So, this order size is not representative of sales overall, just of one size or group of sizes.

PE

Sirius Glass · Sep 15, 2010

andrewkirkby said:
I could see this coming.

I have a feeling 160 NC/VC will be kept the same. Sales of those films are still in very high volumes when compared to the 400 speed films.

I've got a box coming - will upload some tests soon.

AK

I cannot find any VC 400 in 4x5 to order. No one has it. All I can find in 4x5 is NC 160 and VC 160.

I can find VC 400 in 120 and 135.

Steve

andrewkirkby · Sep 15, 2010

Sirius Glass said:
I cannot find any VC 400 in 4x5 to order. No one has it. All I can find in 4x5 is NC 160 and VC 160.

I can find VC 400 in 120 and 135.

Steve

A box:

5x 120 rolls...

lxdude · Sep 15, 2010

Photo Engineer said:
Remember that an 8x10 or 5x7 special order can be cut from a master roll intended for 4x5. So, this order size is not representative of sales overall, just of one size or group of sizes.

PE

Sure. It just helps them use up a roll they already have and are using for sheet.
I'm still impressed with their willingness to work on that monetary scale.

Anon Ymous · Sep 15, 2010

Sirius Glass said:
I cannot find any VC 400 in 4x5 to order. No one has it. All I can find in 4x5 is NC 160 and VC 160.

I can find VC 400 in 120 and 135.

Steve

Was it ever offered in sheets? This tech-pub doesn't list any in 4x5, only 135, 120 and 220 (see page 2), as opposed to 400NC.

2F/2F · Sep 15, 2010

I specifically looked for 400VC sheet film on a few occasions, and none was ever to be found. It was never made, TMK.

Sirius Glass · Sep 15, 2010

2F/2F said:
I specifically looked for 400VC sheet film on a few occasions, and none was ever to be found. It was never made, TMK.

If that is true, can I get 400 UC on 4x5? <<insert forced grin here>>

Steve

wblynch · Sep 15, 2010

Very well stated !!

lxdude said:
If a large company like Kodak is willing to do an occasional special order for $15,000, of which only some percentage is profit, I don't think it's fair for anyone to say that Kodak doesn't care about film users. Most large companies can't be bothered with amounts that small, considering it more trouble than it's worth. It shows that the "corporate mentality" is not all-pervasive at EK.

jpberger · Sep 16, 2010

Photo Engineer said:
Erik;

Please note that the post you are responding to is in error. He states different results for the same exposure changes in that sentence. I'll let you guys work it out!

PE

Sorry, sloppy formatting on my part, but the bottom line is that if you over expose negative film the colour saturation often changes.

Q.G. · Sep 16, 2010

wblynch said:
I see photography as having two parts. The capture side and the presentation side.

The vast majority of us are engaged in the capture side. To use all our wonderful traditional cameras and lenses, we use and embrace film.

But most film camera users never had a darkroom for printing and developing.

Here we are allowed to talk never ending about the joys of using our 'analog' cameras and organic film but we are forbidden from talking about alternative presentation of those images except for traditional methods which most of us never knew. Slide projection is as close as most of us will ever get.

So we pretend to not talk about the scanning side for fear of chastisement.

The 'sister' site for hybrid activities is, unfortunately, not as well visited or updated as APUG.

Isn't this all rather silly?

It is.

We all like to (or at least have to) eat.
There are, it seems, an infinite amount of books about ingredients and how to prepare them, and combine them.

But that, of course, is not all there is to eating.
Yet, must people who are interested in how to prepare food also go through pages after pages about what makes the best table linnen, what cutlery would be best, plates, glasses, etc. when they pick up a cookbook?
Perhaps such a book should contain chapters about social etiquette, the correct automobile to drive to dinner parties in, oh! and what to wear too?
Just because some people might think that cooks are in denial about all that when they want to know how long to cook carrots before they go to mush?

Silly indeed.

If i want to know how long a scanner lamp takes to warm up, there are places i can turn to.
If i want to know how long to soup a film in Rodinal, there are other places i can turn to.
That they are separate places doesn't confuse me, causes no problems.
Just like it doesn't leave me stumped that i will not find a telephone number directory in a cookbook.

TSSPro · Sep 16, 2010

I had been a proud fuji shooter for years- In more recent times I feel like I should pick a camp (manufacturer) and support them with as much product consumed on my end as the budget will allow. With the introduction of Ektar and now Portra 400, in my eyes it is proof that Kodak is putting effort, even though is may be consolidating their offerings, toward newer film technologies. Even though my $100+ a month may not be much, but its still helping, right?

Hmm...well, Kodak, here I come.

Sirius Glass · Sep 16, 2010

TSSPro said:
I had been a proud fuji shooter for years- In more recent times I feel like I should pick a camp (manufacturer) and support them with as much product consumed on my end as the budget will allow. With the introduction of Ektar and now Portra 400, in my eyes it is proof that Kodak is putting effort, even though is may be consolidating their offerings, toward newer film technologies. Even though my $100+ a month may not be much, but its still helping, right?

Hmm...well, Kodak, here I come.

Wise move. Thank you.

Steve

Sirius Glass · Sep 16, 2010

wblynch said:
I see photography as having two parts. The capture side and the presentation side.

The vast majority of us are engaged in the capture side. To use all our wonderful traditional cameras and lenses, we use and embrace film.

But most film camera users never had a darkroom for printing and developing.

Here we are allowed to talk never ending about the joys of using our 'analog' cameras and organic film but we are forbidden from talking about alternative presentation of those images except for traditional methods which most of us never knew. Slide projection is as close as most of us will ever get.

So we pretend to not talk about the scanning side for fear of chastisement.

The 'sister' site for hybrid activities is, unfortunately, not as well visited or updated as APUG.

Isn't this all rather silly?

There is a solution to your quandary.

Ask your film questions here; ask your hybrid printing questions at hybridphoto.com.

All bases are covered.

Steve

Scott_Sheppard · Sep 16, 2010

Sirius Glass said:
There is a solution to your quandary.

Ask your film questions here; ask your hybrid printing questions at hybridphoto.com.

All bases are covered.

Steve

If you guys think that going to hybridphoto.com is worth anybody's time then you are smoking CRACK !!

That site is DEAD... There is NO COMMUNITY THERE !!

Is you guys don't embrace the hybrid workflow then all you will have to shoot is some B&W made by some 3rd world factory !!

Its a proven FACT that 99.9% of ALL COLOR FILM is scanned.

By alienating 99.5% of the worlds film shooting population you are cutting off the hand that FEEDS YOU !!

Do you really think that Kodak will continue to make B&W stock after the color dies off, AGAIN you are smoking CRACK !!

I know for a FACT that there are executives at Kodak that would LOVE to KILL ALL FILM !! This includes your beloved B&W !!

Analog based photographers need to hang with other analog photogs. When you guys shun them out and tell them to piss off, all this does is drive then to go shoot DIGITAL. When that happens you can kiss film goodbye !!

You all better think about your OLD SCHOOL ways real quick before there is no more old school film to shoot at all !!

LONG LIVE Hybrid Analog Photography !!

Enjoy

Scott

Sirius Glass · Sep 16, 2010

Scott_Sheppard said:
If you guys think that going to hybridphoto.com is worth anybody's time then you are smoking CRACK !!

No, Scott, I am not smokin' crack. See the last line of my signature.

Steve

Ken Nadvornick · Sep 16, 2010

Scott_Sheppard said:
I know for a FACT that there are executives at Kodak that would LOVE to KILL ALL FILM !! This includes your beloved B&W !!

As I continue to say, first you have to want to sell film... If you don't really, really want to do that as a business, if that is not your long-term strategic business goal, then no amount of loyal film-purchasing customers are going to make a difference - analog or hybrid or any other type.

If you have set yourself up to sell widgets. If you have bet your company and your company's employees and investors - and retirees - on the widget business model, then no amount of customers walking in and asking to purchase doodads is going to win you that bet. In fact, the doodad purchasers are probably just getting in the way, blocking the counter space that could otherwise be occupied by widget purchasers. They are, in fact, just hurting your long-term widget business goals.

Ken

P.S. Once again, Scott. Please stop shouting at me. I don't shout at you. Please don't tell me I'm a drug user. I don't say that about you. Please stop trying to drive wedges between pure analog and hybrid practitioners. They don't try to stir up trouble with you. I respect your opinions, even when they differ from my own. If you want to create a true sense of community, you might want to consider exercising a little reciprocity along those same lines.

Q.G. · Sep 17, 2010

Scott_Sheppard said:
By alienating 99.5% of the worlds film shooting population you are cutting off the hand that FEEDS YOU !!

Do you really think that Kodak will continue to make B&W stock after the color dies off, AGAIN you are smoking CRACK !!

Which must be what you are on should you think that talk about scanning on APUG will change their minds, or have an impact on film sales.

This "alienating" talk appears not to be from this world either. Why so has been said before.

munz6869 · Sep 17, 2010

Is you guys don't embrace the hybrid workflow then all you will have to shoot is some B&W made by some 3rd world factory !!

Its a proven FACT that 99.9% of ALL COLOR FILM is scanned.

Umm, why not start your own site, instead of changing this one - 43,866 analogue aficionados can't all be wrong? Also, many of us have... darkrooms!

Marc!

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