Kodak out of stock in Tokyo

Xmas said:

You are assuming the market stops shrinking. Even if it does stop shrinking Harman make more profit by keeping their range static, they make even more by reducing range.

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You are still not getting it, LOL!

Make more by reducing range? Sorry Mr. "Systems Engineer" but I will let Simon Galley tell me how Ilford is doing, not anyone else....

The market for black and white products is not shrinking, it is steady if not growing....we are only talking black and white here, nothing else.

In the *specific* case of 400 ISO large format film, Kodak TMAX 400 sells very well, to the point that it is currently not worth it for Ilford to consider coating Delta 400 in sheet film. If TMY2 ever goes away, then that leaves a pretty big hole in the market, ISO 400 speed black and white films are immensely popular in large format due to a number of reasons, a big one being windy days and many of us like the sharper t-grain types for a lot of the work we do.

If Delta 400 becomes the only T-grain ISO 400 speed black and white film in town, sales *will* go up and make it worth it to coat LF.

I'm still getting to know Delta 400 in case TMY2 ever goes away.

There is nothing to LOL at. If Kodak goes, HP5 will be the only ISO 400 film in town. No need for Harman to coat Delta in LF (a lot of costly R&D), they would earn more with the HP5 alone.

miha said:

There is nothing to LOL at. If Kodak goes, HP5 will be the only ISO 400 film in town. No need for Harman to coat Delta in LF (a lot of costly R&D), they would earn more with the HP5 alone.

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I don't agree with you, and really, only time will tell. I guess I will earmark about 5 grand for TMY2 if it ever gets discontinued.

StoneNYC said:

I'm glad for Kodak's current existence too, I think if kodak fails it will also make "awareness" of film lesser, I think media will cling to it, and say it's the end of film, and that will hurt the industry, so I hope for everyone's sake that kodak can find a way to reinvent itself like ilford has.

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I get near daily updates from Kodak Alaris on Linkedin. Among the dozens upon dozens of posts that KA makes, never once has film ever been mentioned. Every last product announcement, corporate re-org, or marketing publication has been about digital. One can only be left to assume that 100% of KA's re-invention involves digital.

So, I"m left to assume that KA will eventually morph into a company where the vast majority of all corporate resources fall well and truly into the digital camp.

Will this new company care at all, even one bit, about film?

RattyMouse said:

So, I"m left to assume that KA will eventually morph into a company where the vast majority of all corporate resources fall well and truly into the digital camp.

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Hypothetical question:

Ralf Gerbershagen is currently the CEO of Kodak Alaris. Before that he was Vice President and General Manager at Motorola Mobility, a Google-owned company. Before that he was President of Motorola Mobility Germany GmbH. And before that he was Vice President of European Sales for Motorola.

Given that pedigree, in what technology direction do people predict Harman/Ilford would move if Mr. Gerbershagen were to suddenly be handed the reins there?

(Hint: Gravity really is what's holding down those lounge chairs out on the back deck...)



Ken

RattyMouse said:

I get near daily updates from Kodak Alaris on Linkedin. Among the dozens upon dozens of posts that KA makes, never once has film ever been mentioned. Every last product announcement, corporate re-org, or marketing publication has been about digital. One can only be left to assume that 100% of KA's re-invention involves digital.

So, I"m left to assume that KA will eventually morph into a company where the vast majority of all corporate resources fall well and truly into the digital camp.

Will this new company care at all, even one bit, about film?

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I avoid Linkedin and refuse to register with them or any other social marketing internet presence.

If I were marketing to film users, I wouldn't choose them. Outside of within trade marketing (PPOA, PPOBC etc.) I would look at art/educational markets, Lomography, Photo net, APUG and Kodak's own blog as places where I would spend money.

If Kodak goes, HP5 will be the only ISO 400 film in town.

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Aren't you forgetting Fomapan 400 in sheet film?

Well, the film is being made and it has to go somewhere. You have to remember that Kodak's marketing "space" is much bigger than Ilford's and the refill of a pipeline that huge may take a while and consume a lot of shipped product. After all, Kodak Alaris must pay the pensions of a lot of very good people who were and are friends of mine. I think that they will do it, but it will take time.

As for "models", I tend to agree with Dan (PKM) in his arguments about the different products and the B&W market. The B&W market is expanding or at least holding steady. If you count MP, the color market has grown a tad. But, internally, the coating division here is having problems due to the vast swings in the market.

PE

Ricardo Miranda said:

Aren't you forgetting Fomapan 400 in sheet film?

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Yes I am. Although it's a stop shy of 400.

PKM-25 said:

I don't agree with you, and really, only time will tell. I guess I will earmark about 5 grand for TMY2 if it ever gets discontinued.

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It is over a month ago that Ericdan posted the OP of this thread.

How much time do you need?

If I was KA id stop supplying the low margin sales outlets and wait for the panic, I can get all three Kodak monos in my shops in any packaging. Id imagine KAs margins are higher here.

PE says that the coater is still busy busy but EK have a contract for cine film with the studios, which may require a few more cans before they turn off the machine for last time. Getting the last can filled earlier is more profit. Cause you lay off the workers earlier.

We don't know for sure but it would be charitable to assume that distribution had failed for incompetence? Incautious to assume Kodak would sell its duck on a rainy day?

If you use 4x5 or larger why do you need TMY2 or Delta400?

If the choice is between Forma 400 and HP5+?

Ilford might make Kentmere 400 not Delta?

EK are subsidising cine film production cause the big studios were a creditor. KA are getting money from the profit in stills sales for the same reason. Neither group may see any long term pay back for investment in growth in film.

Fuji don't see much hope for film they were not bankrupt

The accountants will have what if spread sheets doing three dimensional what if graphs for profit- the what if will not assume that film will grow or stay static.

They have gone bankrupt once already.

Ilford will have what Iffs for Forma and Harman.

A lotta people will buy the Forma even in 35mm so they need to compete in $. HP5+ has better dynamic range better toe better grain but premium $.
Kentmere 400 less up front in $ in 4x5 so bigger market share... Simon has to eat.

I use a lotta Forma already and Kentmere400...

Xmas...how much time do I need? Huh?

Honestly, I just buy my film and get on with making photographs. So does Nuff in Australia, he orders it from the states, pays his shipping and shoots his film. Problem. Solved.

That is what matters, that is what life behind the camera is all about. I use TMY2 in 4x5 because I currently make prints as large as 20x24 and will go much larger when I get the right space. It's my favorite black and white film, I use it in every format. Tmax 400 behind a 135 Apo Sironar S, Hasselblad 60mm CF or Leica 50mm 1.4 Asph is stratospherically sharp, the film is a masterpiece!

And if it and other Kodak films to away, I will still have Ilford and the thousands of great Kodak negs to print from until I'm too old to cope. It's all just so damn easy to me, so I keep my priorities in shooting photographs.

Obviously, others have different priorities...

miha said:

Yes I am. Although it's a stop shy of 400.

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250-320 in Microphen is all I get.
400 for HP5+

the Forma has much less dynamic range though - dull days only, a more contrasty toe, and larger grain.

I use it for the grain signature.

Photo Engineer said:

Well, the film is being made and it has to go somewhere. You have to remember that Kodak's marketing "space" is much bigger than Ilford's and the refill of a pipeline that huge may take a while and consume a lot of shipped product. After all, Kodak Alaris must pay the pensions of a lot of very good people who were and are friends of mine. I think that they will do it, but it will take time.

As for "models", I tend to agree with Dan (PKM) in his arguments about the different products and the B&W market. The B&W market is expanding or at least holding steady. If you count MP, the color market has grown a tad. But, internally, the coating division here is having problems due to the vast swings in the market.

PE

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I have the highest regard for Kodak's retired staff and of course I want them to have their pensions. (I won't say as much for its management).

But there somewhere is the root of the problem.

The Kodak Alaris deal was not done to save Kodak film or any other product. It was done to save the pension fund from liqidation by the UK regulator. Therefore they had to include the personal imaging division, because that's where the revenue was being generated. Despite that it's being treated as an ugly step childby the company today.

Film photographers may well be the only customers who give a hoot about Kodak today. Anyone else can get better products elsewhere.

I think that Xmas is on a rant against both Alaris and Dan. Kodak Park is making film as fast as they can at the present time and there are no plans to turn out the lights (well, in this case turn on the lights ). Alaris needs the film to fulfill the deal on the pensions and so the film is moving somewhere. It takes about 1 month to ship a container from the east coast across the US and then the Pacific on average. So, we may have to wait as the pipeline fills.

There are no current layoffs here at KP. They are announced with great fanfare on the evening news. So, no changes there. KP does have a contract with MP film users, and that demand seems to have gone up a bit. Not sure. I do know that B&W sheet film plunged and then went back up as did all of B&W. Color pro is constant or up a tad, while color consumer is down. Swings are rather huge though and hard to compensate for as I noted above.

Remember that film is made at Rochester and paper at Harrow.

PE

Photo Engineer said:

I think that Xmas is on a rant against both Alaris and Dan. Kodak Park is making film as fast as they can at the present time and there are no plans to turn out the lights (well, in this case turn on the lights ). Alaris needs the film to fulfill the deal on the pensions and so the film is moving somewhere. It takes about 1 month to ship a container from the east coast across the US and then the Pacific on average. So, we may have to wait as the pipeline fills.

There are no current layoffs here at KP. They are announced with great fanfare on the evening news. So, no changes there. KP does have a contract with MP film users, and that demand seems to have gone up a bit. Not sure. I do know that B&W sheet film plunged and then went back up as did all of B&W. Color pro is constant or up a tad, while color consumer is down. Swings are rather huge though and hard to compensate for as I noted above.

Remember that film is made at Rochester and paper at Harrow.

PE

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Thanks for the info PE. Glad to hear that B38 is working well.
I bought a roll of 120 portra dated 1/2016. Don't know what if it's the newest batch made, but recent nevertheless. I just processed my first roll of it in 35mm and it's beautful stuff.

I observed something quite curious about Kodak (RA4) paper. Most labs seem to print on Fuji paper, and Kodak C-paper seems to be a rarity. Infact a lab I began using recently switched to Fuji paper. I'd love to print into Endura, not that Fuji's is bad, but that way I'd support KA. Problem: Haven't found a lab!
This is in Spain, Europe. But the paper thing seems to apply for Europe and labs that offer printing online.

There are some rather arcane reasons why Fuji paper is being used rather than Endura. Endura is being made and used at a high rate though, and those rules may change.

PE

Same here in Sweden. Labs print everyting on Fuji paper. Kind of defeats the purpose of having your Kodak films printed professionally.

Photo Engineer said:

There are some rather arcane reasons why Fuji paper is being used rather than Endura. Endura is being made and used at a high rate though, and those rules may change.

PE

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I might guess that as many labs use Frontier systems, they have an agreement already with Fuji for the materials. Again, there are other using other machinery and yet they too use Fuji.
Nice to know that Endura is being used a lot anyways, but I wonder where it is going.

Jaf-Photo said:

Same here in Sweden. Labs print everyting on Fuji paper. Kind of defeats the purpose of having your Kodak films printed professionally.

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Fuji paper is fine, but sometimes it's nice to be able to use something else or just have a straight-up all Kodak output.
IIRC Fuji C-type paper fore Europe is made in Netherlands.

PKM-25 said:

...I just buy my film and get on with making photographs.

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In all of the posts about Kodak's (or any other film manufacturer's) future, this may be the wisest sentence I've read. Worrying about the availability, down the road, is a waste of time- time that could be put to better use by making photographs today. There are no guarantees that any emulsion will be around forever. Until there's a latent image formed, film is really just a piece of useless plastic (albeit full of possibilities). Fears about the future tend to cause stagnation in the present. Buy it, expose it, develop it, and print it.

eddie said:

In all of the posts about Kodak's (or any other film manufacturer's) future, this may be the wisest sentence I've read. Worrying about the availability, down the road, is a waste of time- time that could be put to better use by making photographs today. There are no guarantees that any emulsion will be around forever. Until there's a latent image formed, film is really just a piece of useless plastic (albeit full of possibilities). Fears about the future tend to cause stagnation in the present. Buy it, expose it, develop it, and print it.

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One could reasonably assume a few things.

1. People do other things than make photographs. I am not sure I know anyone who makes images 24x7.

2. Sometimes a person might not want to make photographs. You know, recharge the batteries. During such times they might find themselves in front of computer, wishing to discuss issues or topics about their favorite hobby.

RattyMouse said:

I get near daily updates from Kodak Alaris on Linkedin. Among the dozens upon dozens of posts that KA makes, never once has film ever been mentioned. Every last product announcement, corporate re-org, or marketing publication has been about digital. One can only be left to assume that 100% of KA's re-invention involves digital.

So, I"m left to assume that KA will eventually morph into a company where the vast majority of all corporate resources fall well and truly into the digital camp.

Will this new company care at all, even one bit, about film?

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I'm talking media... Remember when Kodakchrome went away? There were all sorts of news stories about it, but many of them gave the impression that film in general have been discontinued, and I believe something similar would happen if Kodak stopped making film at all, the news people would jump on it as a story to tell, and would most likely give the impression that all film in the world was not being made anymore, and that would damage films in general as people who weren't as savvy about places like B&H and Freestyle etc.

So that's my point, no one is watching Kodak's linked in account, no one that matters, but media affects things heavily.

Remember when opera said red meat was dangerous and half the population stopped buying it for a short time? Except the meat industry had the money to sue her and she apologized and evening went back to normal.

But people NEED food, not everyone NEEDS film (even if we feel we do) in the same way, so many might give up.

It's overall not good.

Edit: about your question regarding why would anyone want to shoot T-grain/delta films in large-format, I can only answer for myself, that lately I have wanted to specialize on just a few films and not get so crazy with so many different emulsions, so when I move from one format to the other I would like to keep the same film, so I might prefer Delta400 in 35mm and 120, so I would want to also use the same in LF film, so dev times and exposure and metering times and techniques don't have to be adjusted. So that's why...

StoneNYC said:

But people NEED food, not everyone NEEDS film (even if we feel we do) in the same way, so many might give up.

It's overall not good.

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If anyone has given up on photography because a specific film is gone, they never had the necessary commitment, and passion, in the first place. Films, papers, and chemicals, have come and gone throughout photography's history. Those with the passion have always adapted. They will continue to do so.

Eddie has a very good point.

After nearly a lifetime of working in photography, I find that I can get a good photo (print or scan BTW) from just about any film. I don't worry about the film, developer or most anything else. I shoot whatever I've been able to find on the shelves and use D76. I print with Ilford MGIV and use Liquidol or Dektol and TF5, TF4 or KRLF, whatever jug I have mixed at the time.

I have no worries or concerns, as the quality is just fine if you do things right.

PE

eddie said:

If anyone has given up on photography because a specific film is gone, they never had the necessary commitment, and passion, in the first place. Films, papers, and chemicals, have come and gone throughout photography's history. Those with the passion have always adapted. They will continue to do so.

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You misunderstand... Not every film users KNOW there is another option besides Kodak.... Heck I had never even heard of ilford before 2011... I was 29 years old... I had heard of Fuji because I saw it in the supermarket but it was always cheap crap film, the only other film I knew of was Kodak...

I only shot 35mm at the time. I only discovered ilford because I found an old folder camera at a tag sale and went to the only photolab I knew of that still sold film, and ask them what film I could get that would be similar to the film that the camera would have been shot with back in the day and I was given Ilford PanF+ in 120 because it was slow like "old fashion" film. That's how my love started after that first roll, but before then I had no clue.

Now do you understand? Film consumers might not know to even look for another option... At least in some parts of the world... I've never seen ilford on any shelf anywhere except that one photo shop, and even now their stock or kodak and ilford is dwindling to nothing.

So that's my point, it could hurt film.

Anyone who doesn't know about Ilford (or the other options) isn't a committed film shooter.