Kodak out of stock in Tokyo

Personally, I'm not religious about corporations (or any other matter). I guess they can die like us humans after all and it seems some of us here treat them us such. Personally I'm a bit of a cynic and I'm not going to get upset about some company going belly up etc... I use what I like and is pleasing to my eyes. Politics, Religions etc... they have nothing to do with me.

My eyes are just searching for beauty and new wisdom. And in this case it's TriX and for slide film E100G/VS (which is already gone, but still in my fridge).

Xmas: You are lucky to have a brick store, but I think sooner or later everyone will become like Australia and film will be a big niche...

Xmas said:

Is fair and unbiased a site rule or merely your personal whim?

Forma are sponsors too?
Lots of people use Forma in 35mm, larger sizes and chems.
My brick shop frequently runs out and posts restock ETA.

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Comparing Foma to Kodak is like comparing a Vespa to a BMW. Not relevant.

Being fair and unbiased is a personal choice (and a professional requirement.)

But it's true that most people bullsh#t and expect to be bullsh#tted. Telling it as it is upsets the whole bullsh#t balance.

If you want to make a friend, lie to them. If you want to make an enemy, tell them the truth.

Nuff said:

Xmas: You are lucky to have a brick store, but I think sooner or later everyone will become like Australia and film will be a big niche...

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Yes Im aware of good fortune.
They are next to a Uni with fine art bias.
And when the students start the year the K1000s dissappear across London as well as the Forma.
Some students only work in mono...
Yesterday I was shooting in a street market 10 mins walk away from the photo shop so bought 500gm hypo on way past.

The shop has cut back no CD3 or CD4.

Jaf-Photo said:

Comparing Foma to Kodak is like comparing a Vespa to a BMW. Not relevant.

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Well I only ever used Trix in 220 when other companies stopped mono 220 eg Ilford.
Formapan 400 is cheaper than Trix and has nicer grain.

A Vespa is cheaper than a BMW and is more convenient parking in town.

Kodak has been bankrupt once and is paying back creditors in kind, eg studios and pension fund.
Forma have not gone bankrupt yet.

Cause I use bulk Trix is about 3x the price of Doublex same coating plant and next day courier delivery... I'll be unhappy when EK stops. I'll try Orwo...

Note Double-x is fine grained.

Neopan 400 has gone already, last can is in a bulk loader.

I was hoping for the holy war to reignite. I had the popcorn all ready..:munch:

Seriously though, throughout the bankruptcy process, I watched Kodak give bonuses to the senior executives, while simultaneously screwing over the employees and retirees. Granted, KA is NOT Kodak, but when a company basically comes out and says that they are simply not interested in a product, and we see a world wide shortage, something is wrong. Ilford and Adox have earned their good reputations. When we ask for a product, they will take the time to explore the option and explain their decisions.

Just recently I dropped $45 for 3 rolls of Superia 1600 that hasn't expired yet. For me that's a lot of money but I am willing to do my part when and where I can.


That doesn't mean we have to like every product they offer. I personally don't like HP5+, it's too grainy for my taste, however FP4 is a very nice film. One of these days I would love to get my hands on some of the other offerings and see what they are like, but like everything else, it's a matter of choices. In my case that choice is to maintain the roof over my head and food to eat.
As for ADOX, the color explosion product is not really to my liking either, but it seems to be a pretty popular offering, which is great. While I would love to see ADOX, or anybody actually, come out with a true IR film, a profit would have to be made doing it and it won't be from me as I would only buy at most 3-5 rolls a year.


We now return to the holy film wars.....

P.S. Speaking of cheap film, one of the college book stores here is selling 2 year old expired HP5+ in bulk rolls for $20. I have 400 feet in my freezer. IF anyone wants some, plus shipping, let me know and we can talk about it.

madgardener said:

I was hoping for the holy war to reignite. I had the popcorn all ready..:munch:

While I would love to see ADOX, or anybody actually, come out with a true IR film, a profit would have to be made doing it and it won't be from me as I would only buy at most 3-5 rolls a year.

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After Kodak stopped HIE then next IR was
efke IR820, & Fotokemia stopped trading for low profit margins.

Rolli or Ilford are the only games tables in last chance saloon, ne rein va plus...

Well, to use a broad brush, Kodak makes high-end film. Portra, Ektar, TMAX and Tri-X are gold standards in their respective categories.

Second is Fuji. Acros and 400H will do. Provia is really good.

Third is Ilford.

Fourth is everyone else.

If Kodak films go out of production, I will move to Fuji. If Fuji films go out of production, I will will sell my analogue gear. I can't be spending time and money on films that don't look the way I want them to.

And then you get digital gear? Does that look like you want it to?

I'm perfectly happy shooting digital. But film is a lot more fun. The photo chemical process produces a unique result.

But at the same time, shooting film is a lot more expensive and time-consuming than digital, so there is a cut-off point somewhere. For me that'll be if Kodak and Fuji stop coating.

Fair enough.

Snip

Jaf-Photo said:

... I will will sell my analogue gear. I can't be spending time and money on films that don't look the way I want them to.

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You won't be able to give gear away to charity shops unless you sell sooner than that...

Xmas said:

Snip



You won't be able to give gear away to charity shops unless you sell sooner than that...

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Easy. I'll sell it to the Ilford Film Users.

Excellent idea...

Simon : ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited.

PKM-25 said:

If Ilford in current form did not exist, I would be purrrretty uncomfortable about my choice to use black and white film and make darkroom prints as a future for my career. But they do exist and I love their products, so I buy them. And if the time comes that for whatever reason, I no longer buy Kodak products, I will use even more Ilford products.

But what I won't be doing is distracting my self from the sheer joy of shooting and printing nice black and white photos because I have to hold a grudge against Kodak and make it a near-daily process of vomiting my disdain all over the internet....

I don't take *any* photo company's business tactics personally, I figure it best to take the images I make on the film personally.

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Even if ilford didn't exist I would be ok, ADOX actually makes some pretty good products and when used properly (though with some drawbacks and more knowledge / experience needed) FOMA can also create some stellar images.

But I'm glad for ilfords price

I'm glad for Kodak's current existence too, I think if kodak fails it will also make "awareness" of film lesser, I think media will cling to it, and say it's the end of film, and that will hurt the industry, so I hope for everyone's sake that kodak can find a way to reinvent itself like ilford has.

If not I hope ilford or film Ferrania can buy the patents to Kodak's color films to keep color alive (same goes for Fuji if they stop making their E-6 film).

Jaf-Photo said:

Snip...

But it's true that most people bullsh#t and expect to be bullsh#tted. Telling it as it is upsets the whole bullsh#t balance.

If you want to make a friend, lie to them. If you want to make an enemy, tell them the truth.

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So is that why no one likes me here? Hehe

Jaf-Photo said:

Well, to use a broad brush, Kodak makes high-end film. Portra, Ektar, TMAX and Tri-X are gold standards in their respective categories.

Second is Fuji. Acros and 400H will do. Provia is really good.

Third is Ilford.

Fourth is everyone else.

If Kodak films go out of production, I will move to Fuji. If Fuji films go out of production, I will will sell my analogue gear. I can't be spending time and money on films that don't look the way I want them to.

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You really should try Delta100, although different, it's pretty similar to Kodak Tmax100, really to me it's so close I vaguely can tell the difference. It's a wonderful film.

So try that and see if that changes your mind.

The only ilford film I haven't tried is Delta400 and only because it's not available in sheet film, so I won't bother getting hooked on it, yet, someday I think it will be made in sheet again, maybe.

StoneNYC said:

So is that why no one likes me here? Hehe

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Well the problem is not patents but

IPR
and prototyping costs

When the peoples at Kodak's Harrow film coating factory were made redundant you lost all the process instructions to make the film on their machines, to coat, to cut, to finish the film.

If the factory still existed the process documentation and the experienced staff would be needed.

The documentation will be in land fill or recycling machines.

The bricks of the factory will be in a brick eating machine.

The people redundant.

The real estate coveted by little Brit cottages.

The process instructions for EK big machines that do cine and current film's would not necessarily be the same...

Doing a prototyping run at Harrow used a lump of Silver and a chunk of factory time - well expensive.

When Fotokemia went bust IR820 went too...

X-Ray film is far less specialized than most of the other B&W products made under the Kodak label. It is intended to go from a freezer / fridge to exposure and then to be processed immediately in one basic process, not dozens of different ones. It is not tweaked for LIK or Reciprocity and so it is a very simple emulsion that just happens to be coated at a high weight on the support. Remember that labor is often more expensive than materials and I think you are looking at a case here where little labor is involved compared to making TriX or Portra.

PE

madgardener said:

I was hoping for the holy war to reignite. I had the popcorn all ready..:munch:

Seriously though, throughout the bankruptcy process, I watched Kodak give bonuses to the senior executives, while simultaneously screwing over the employees and retirees. Granted, KA is NOT Kodak, but when a company basically comes out and says that they are simply not interested in a product, and we see a world wide shortage, something is wrong. Ilford and Adox have earned their good reputations. When we ask for a product, they will take the time to explore the option and explain their decisions.

.

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Kodak Canada continues to fund the pension plan for existing and retired employees, and continues to pay for their extended medical plans.

The last full actuarial valuation done (by a government agency) in 2010 indicated a small but significant underfunding of the pensions (96.3% rather than the preferred 100%) but contributions from Kodak Canada plus positive market performance may have improved that situation - a new valuation is scheduled for this year.

All debts of Kodak Canada appear to have been paid. The company seems to be operating normally. There were some changes in staffing, but anyone who lost their job would have received appropriate severance/notice.

There are other, significant international Kodaks out there, and only Eastman Kodak (the largest) went into bankruptcy.

StoneNYC said:

You really should try Delta100, although different, it's pretty similar to Kodak Tmax100, really to me it's so close I vaguely can tell the difference. It's a wonderful film.

So try that and see if that changes your mind.

The only ilford film I haven't tried is Delta400 and only because it's not available in sheet film, so I won't bother getting hooked on it, yet, someday I think it will be made in sheet again, maybe.

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Both of the ilford (delta) films may have a softer toe?

HP5+ grain on 4x5 film cannot upset you?

A coating run of Delta 400 for packs would be expensive, you recall the 5222 saga, and that was on the same base. Without prejudice Simon will say no.

Jaf-Photo said:

I'm perfectly happy shooting digital. But film is a lot more fun. The photo chemical process produces a unique result.

But at the same time, shooting film is a lot more expensive and time-consuming than digital, so there is a cut-off point somewhere. For me that'll be if Kodak and Fuji stop coating.

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Really?

If in 15-20 year's time Ilford is all that is left, I am willing to bet most will be making cracking photographs. Two things make Ilford products better than most, quality of design and quality control. These attributes make for a consistent working method which frees up the creative engine.

And I am willing to bet a big stack of dough that if the world loses TMY2, Ilford will strongly consider making Delta 400 in sheets, they would simply clean up...

PKM-25 said:

And I am willing to bet a big stack of dough that if the world loses TMY2, Ilford will strongly consider making Delta 400 in sheets, they would simply clean up...

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Stay away from bookies then, my model says there is less profit in selling Delta 400 and Hp5+ in sheets for Ilford and resellers. Ilford staff have to eat.

Suggest the future is less selection in emulsions and formats not more.

WINBNI is dead

Would it not be nice if

More likely Ilford would cancel FP4+,... (eg what happened to Plusx?) or Delta 100...

If volume keeps dropping all bets are off.

Xmas said:

Stay away from bookies then, my model says there is less profit in selling Delta 400 and Hp5+ in sheets for Ilford and resellers. Ilford staff have to eat.

Suggest the future is less selection in emulsions and formats not more.

WINBNI is dead

Would it not be nice if

More likely Ilford would cancel FP4+,... (eg what happened to Plusx?) or Delta 100...

If volume keeps dropping all bets are off.

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Your model knows more about film than you? (The photographer) hmmm... That doesn't bode well for your reputation... LOL

Xmas said:

Stay away from bookies then, my model says there is less profit in selling Delta 400 and Hp5+ in sheets for Ilford and resellers. Ilford staff have to eat.

Suggest the future is less selection in emulsions and formats not more.

WINBNI is dead

Would it not be nice if

More likely Ilford would cancel FP4+,... (eg what happened to Plusx?) or Delta 100...

If volume keeps dropping all bets are off.

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Mmmm....you are not quite getting it, if TMY2 disappears, demand for a t-grain 400 ISO film ( Delta 400 ) in 4x5 and larger formats will likely put a lot of dough in Ilford's pocket, be a top seller honestly.

I think you grossly underestimate how well black and white is doing and will do, especially in 120 and 4x5. Kodak sells a lot of TMX 100 and TMY2 400 in 4x5, both spectacular films to say the least. Volume across the board for film, IE happy snappers, disposable cameras, color films, they are all what is skewing the downward trend.

Both Simon Galley and Thomas Mooney will tell you that sales for black and white products are steady if not growing.

@Stone

Sorry forgot model was confusing - model can mean an accounting sums equation as well as photogenic person.

@PKM

You are assuming the market stops shrinking. Even if it does stop shrinking Harman make more profit by keeping their range static, they make even more by reducing range.

Remind me what happened to Plusx, Neopan 400, ... Agfa, Fotokemia, ...

I'll accept that Impossible film usage is expanding but that is cause c41 mini labs are still disappearing?

It was the C41 mini labs that killed Polariod?