Kodak out of stock in Tokyo

This is where it gets interesting. Everyone is going to have a different opinion. Does it look bad? not at all. Can I do better? no. The skin tone looks washed out to me, the stark contrasts made my eyes ache. I agree with PE though, I would prefer to see a comparison to Tri-X or another known film before singing the virtues of X-ray film, which is also being phased out due to *igital processes.

madgardener said:

This is where it gets interesting. Everyone is going to have a different opinion. Does it look bad? not at all. Can I do better? no. The skin tone looks washed out to me, the stark contrasts made my eyes ache. I agree with PE though, I would prefer to see a comparison to Tri-X or another known film before singing the virtues of X-ray film, which is also being phased out due to *igital processes.

Click to expand...

There are many poor countries that cannot afford even the older digital x-ray machines so x-ray will be around for a while more.

I agree but I like contrast so for me it works as an image.

I also want a comparison so I will do one.

I've only used the AGFA Curix so I'll have to "learn" the kodak ektascan film, but I'll give it a try with comparison shots.

This does no good for those wanting 35mm in Tokyo ...

StoneNYC said:

There are many poor countries that cannot afford even the older digital x-ray machines so x-ray will be around for a while more.

I agree but I like contrast so for me it works as an image.

I also want a comparison so I will do one.

I've only used the AGFA Curix so I'll have to "learn" the kodak ektascan film, but I'll give it a try with comparison shots.

This does no good for those wanting 35mm in Tokyo ...

Click to expand...

...or Kyoto. Went to Yodobashi Camera today and all Kodak black and white film is out of stock (wasn't a few weeks ago), but the signs seemed to indicate that they would be back in stock in August. Colour film (portra, ektar, gold, etc.) is still available.

Luckily I have a fridge full of film that I need to work through so I don't really need to worry about that for now (although I split my loyalties between Ilford, Fuji, and Kodak -- in that order). This is the first time I've seen notices for out-of-stock films in Japan, and I would like to hope that it's partly due to the fact that the Gion Matsuri is on right now (I didn't see any tonight, but I'll look more closely tomorrow).

StoneNYC said:

There are many poor countries that cannot afford even the older digital x-ray machines so x-ray will be around for a while more.

This does no good for those wanting 35mm in Tokyo ...

Click to expand...

Your 1st para is flawed the xray machines are gifted to 3rd world countries & digital running costs are cheaper.

Unlikely they could afford analogue machines can you buy a new film camera cheaper?

Kodak sold xray film cause the market was dying.

They closed Harrow UK film coater 06 cause the Market was dying.

They were not aggressive enough at downsizing the studios and pension fund cherry picked.

Some of our small dentists are still film some larger digital, digital has dominated the xray market from 07-08.

Your 2nd quoted para is missing the word 'Kodak' lots of people will have bought other companies film. So it is no good for KA this month and slimmer pickings next month. Fuji only do Acros so Ilford and Formapan 400 will have done well and some people will not go back.

Xmas said:

Your 1st para is flawed the xray machines are gifted to 3rd world countries & digital running costs are cheaper.

Unlikely they could afford analogue machines can you buy a new film camera cheaper?

Kodak sold xray film cause the market was dying.

They closed Harrow UK film coater 06 cause the Market was dying.

They were not aggressive enough at downsizing the studios and pension fund cherry picked.

Some of our small dentists are still film some larger digital, digital has dominated the xray market from 07-08.

Your 2nd quoted para is missing the word 'Kodak' lots of people will have bought other companies film. So it is no good for KA this month and slimmer pickings next month. Fuji only do Acros so Ilford and Formapan 400 will have done well and some people will not go back.

Click to expand...

Lol, you're funny, going off of my ex GF who is a doctor and goes to Africa every year for a month to work in hospitals there, still on film...

Well, I learned a lot today about X-Ray film structure, and due to the complexity of getting it to image correctly with the fluorescent screen, the curve shape tolerances and other demands makes an X-Ray film quite complex. Not in the way we think of commercial films but in other ways to suit the radiologists. So, I confess that I was wrong in the sense that the emulsions are simple, it is just that they are very very different than commercial films.

This affects grain and sharpness for the most part.

PE

StoneNYC said:

Lol, you're funny, going off of my ex GF who is a doctor and goes to Africa every year for a month to work in hospitals there, still on film...

Click to expand...

Lots of 3rd world hospitals don't have any xray machines your friend is lucky.

My GP chum had no sterile saline for colera in Ethiopia in her gap year post grad.

Some will have been given old Xray analogue kit when 1st world went to digital, but maintenance is not cheap or easy. Bit like ULF cameras.

It is cheaper running a new car than an old one.

If Xray film demand is holding up Kodak made a mistake selling it off?

They also closed their low volume film lines

http://apps.shareholder.com/sec/viewerContent.aspx?companyid=EK&docid=3212244

but kept the monster machine?

Xmas said:

If Xray film demand is holding up Kodak made a mistake selling it off?

Click to expand...

Because Kodak is in the midst of a record setting streak of bad decisions??

Seriously, has any company got it so wrong, so often?

Photo Engineer said:

Well, I learned a lot today about X-Ray film structure, and due to the complexity of getting it to image correctly with the fluorescent screen, the curve shape tolerances and other demands makes an X-Ray film quite complex. Not in the way we think of commercial films but in other ways to suit the radiologists. So, I confess that I was wrong in the sense that the emulsions are simple, it is just that they are very very different than commercial films.

This affects grain and sharpness for the most part.

PE

Click to expand...

From the perspective of a non-chemist. Can you describe some of the differences? This is strictly for personal curiosity.

RattyMouse said:

Because Kodak is in the midst of a record setting streak of bad decisions??

Seriously, has any company got it so wrong, so often?

Click to expand...

Not that has lived to tell the tail. RCA,Circuit City, Zenith, Heathkit,Bethlehem Steel, Sears/Kmart is another company going down the tubes...

For any mad gardener, here is the situation.

The curve shape must be controlled to suit the imaging and thus quite a few chemicals are used to control and tweak the curve shape. It is like adding a group of spices, and varying the quantities of each to suit each batch of spiced stew or soup (the emulsion). And thus, even though latent image keeping is not controlled overly much, the curve shape is, but it is done by using different chemicals.

This control often comes at the expense of grain and sharpness. So, the radiographer is assured of the same image density and tonal range at the same energy over and over, but since he/she is looking for the most part at 8x10 or larger images, the grain and sharpness are not a huge concern, at least when compared at this size vs 35mm for example.

I hope this helps a bit. Remember, if you use a bouquet garni in a soup or stew, the ratios and types of spices are important in the final flavor and so cilantro vs parsley? Parsnip leaf? Salsify? Each is a unique flavor. The same is true of X-Ray films. A veritable bouquet garni of chemicals, but not so much into latent image keeping, raw stock keeping and reciprocity which are major actors in pro and consumer film.

PE

Just a little tidbit. The US exports over 200 million dollars worth of X ray film to china each year. Due to the size of the clinics in Rural china, they prefer Analog systems (Digital gains advantages when you have a lot of records) and there is more people in rural china then in the US.

Just something to think about.

Of course, they expect that in seven years that market might be gone...

RattyMouse said:

Because Kodak is in the midst of a record setting streak of bad decisions??

Seriously, has any company got it so wrong, so often?

Click to expand...

Willie-wowzers I bet that felt Gooooooooood!!!!!

I think we should all chip in for a plane ticket for you to go to Rochester, that way you can piss on their lawn too, maybe even drop a finless brown trout right under the sign, lol!

I just got my new issue of View Camera magazine, lots of work on Tmax 100, some Portra, Ektar....boy those photographers must be stooopid.....

PKM-25 said:

Willie-wowzers I bet that felt Gooooooooood!!!!!

Click to expand...

Yep, it did, a little bit. Just like your post probably felt good to you. Isn't freedom of expression grand?

PKM-25 said:

I think we should all chip in for a plane ticket for you to go to Rochester, that way you can piss on their lawn too, maybe even drop a finless brown trout right under the sign, lol!

Click to expand...

You arrange the ticket, then I'll go. Let me know how that works out for you, ok?

PKM-25 said:

I just got my new issue of View Camera magazine, lots of work on Tmax 100, some Portra, Ektar....boy those photographers must be stooopid.....

Click to expand...

I would not call any photographer stupid. You might, but I won't. :confused:

Thank you PE. Like so many things in this hobby, I didn't realize just how complicated things really are and how many tradeoffs are needed to achieve a certain "effect".

Now when Mirko or Simon start talking about how complicated a new emulsion is to get started,I understand a lot better than I did. That's pretty amazing.

Thanks again

PKM-25 said:

Willie-wowzers I bet that felt Gooooooooood!!!!!

I think we should all chip in for a plane ticket for you to go to Rochester, that way you can piss on their lawn too, maybe even drop a finless brown trout right under the sign, lol!

I just got my new issue of View Camera magazine, lots of work on Tmax 100, some Portra, Ektar....boy those photographers must be stooopid.....

Click to expand...

It is/was difficult to predict xray v cine v still film future volume so we could not really blame management and they will have got good value for selling xray as going concern - if it was there only mistake.

But wilfully ignoring nine patents was wilful.

Closing down their small coating machines is painting oneself into corner unless you planned to pull out of film when cine stops using film in sufficient volume.

The big studios have a rebate contract till '15.

So suggest you'd be better attending movies than peeing on lawn.

Oh wait, Ralf is in China, I bet he is going pay Ratty a personal visit:

http://www.democratandchronicle.com...07/14/kodak-alaris-china-separation/12648127/

And Personalized Imaging splits into two departments, Retail Systems Solutions and Paper and Output Systems:

Dead Link Removed

I also notice a new contact via an outside PR firm on that last one, maybe I will write them and give some links to the nasty posts on here....

Xmas said:

It is/was difficult to predict xray v cine v still film future volume so we could not really blame management and they will have got good value for selling xray as going concern - if it was there only mistake.

But wilfully ignoring nine patents was wilful.

Closing down their small coating machines is painting oneself into corner unless you planned to pull out of film when cine stops using film in sufficient volume.

The big studios have a rebate contract till '15.

So suggest you'd be better attending movies than peeing on lawn.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, film-makers are more often having to fight with the powers that be, to be allowed to shoot on film.

With the new generation of digital movie cameras, there is no objective visual advantage to shooting with film anymore. Some prefer it for more subjective, aesthetic reasons. But when you factor time and cost, that sort of argument will probably be even less successful in Hollywood.

I think some of the heavy-weight auteurs, like the Andersons, could probably hold out with film for a few more years. But that probably won't be enough to keep production going.

:munch:

PKM-25 said:

Oh wait, Ralf is in China, I bet he is going pay Ratty a personal visit:

http://www.democratandchronicle.com...07/14/kodak-alaris-china-separation/12648127/

And Personalized Imaging splits into two departments, Retail Systems Solutions and Paper and Output Systems:

Dead Link Removed

I also notice a new contact via an outside PR firm on that last one, maybe I will write them and give some links to the nasty posts on here....

Click to expand...

Ralph has a lot of work to do, as Kodak's photo kiosk business suffered complete collapse since I arrived in China. When I first got here, Kodak branded kiosks were fairly common. Around 2 years ago, they all disappeared, replaced en masse by HP branded kiosks. the Kodak ones were clearly abandoned, looking beyond dirty, broken down, and very dirty. If they were even open at all, with many all boarded up. They looked like they would fit right in central Detroit. Such horrible looking properties did nothing but convey to the Chinese public that Kodak was synonymous with failure.

The HP branded kiosks were *completely* re-done, and look like Apple stores, bright, shiny, with large crowds of customers.

I saw this all across Shanghai as well as most other Yangtze river delta cities.

RattyMouse said:

When I first got here, Kodak branded kiosks were fairly common.

Click to expand...

I think Kodak is doing this to spite you.

Dinesh said:

I think Kodak is doing this to spite you.

Click to expand...

I was a 100% digital shooter when I first came to China. And I used those Kodak kiosks quite a lot since I did not want to buy a printer here. One kiosk is right by my house, not 5 mins out the door. I watched it decay over several years until one day it was an HP kiosk.

Dinesh said:

I think Kodak is doing this to spite you.

Click to expand...

Nah, they do it to spite anyone who uses a camera

If Xray film demand is holding up Kodak made a mistake selling it off?

Click to expand...

Probably. Perez used it as a quick way to generate cash since he didn't care about it. He had made that clear right out of the chute. Profits from that division were in the billions of dollars per year, even as demand began to fall. It also enabled Perez to ax a lot of people at one shot, although most ended up at Carestream, the company EK sold the x-ray business to, at least for a while.

As far as I knew from my last contacts with Kodak friends that worked in HSD, the Carestream deal was a lot like the Kodak Alaris deal in that Kodak manufactured the film under contract to Carestream and they did the sales and marketing. I see the films are now branded Carestream but they still carry the same EK trademarks such as Ektascan and X-OMAT. I believe Carestream had the rights to the Kodak name for some period of time. Guess they figure no one cared any more. Carestream is not a film company, they are a service oriented outfit. I would have to imagine EK (or former EK people) are still involved somehow.

Latent image keeping wouldn't matter because the film is processed right away. Also, stock turns over pretty quickly because the hospitals don't want to keep it in inventory so storage isn't much of an issue. Imaging is a high profit center so they want that film generating income. It is amazing that it is so cheap compared to regular film.

As PE says, reproducibility of image characteristics for a given technique (or exposure) is key. The technicians are trained to judge exposure to get the density and contrast correct and what is wanted varies by radiologist. They are sometimes looking for minute changes in contrast to read the image, and it is amazing to watch an experienced radiologist and how fast they read images.

There have also been many projects to extend the exposure latitude, another key property, including methods using storage phosphors that are scanned and digitized. All have met with some level of success but most of the image characteristics are still determined by old-fashioned intensifying screens.

The screens are coated with a barium phosphor that is excited by x-rays and fluoresces. That is what creates the image. Contrary to popular belief the film is not primarily exposed by the x-rays. The phosphor intensifying screens are far more efficient than a direct x-ray exposure would be. The most popular screens give off green light which is why many x-ray films are orthochromatic. I would also think that sensitizing dyes play a key role in linking with the characteristics of the phosphor.

Now when Mirko or Simon start talking about how complicated a new emulsion is to get started,I understand a lot better than I did. That's pretty amazing.

Click to expand...

If you are into techno-nerd stuff, I find the technology of film to be absolutely fascinating - just read the emulsion making threads here. It's just as high tech as any digital, electronic whiz-bang thing they can come up with. And the amazing part is you can do about 80% of it in your basement. Try that with a digitable camera!

I just got my new issue of View Camera magazine, lots of work on Tmax 100, some Portra, Ektar....boy those photographers must be stooopid.....

Click to expand...

PKM-25, was that the Mar/Apr issue?