Kodak no longer selling E100D directly to customers?

MattKing · Oct 14, 2024

cmacd123 said:
I understand that they have to slit to either 16mm or 35mm. (super 8 is slit from 16 after perforating) and the slit film is not stored, and goes directly to the perforating room.

As I understand it, the entire production is one continuous set of connected systems. They set equipment up to confection/finish a particular product, feed all or a portion of a master roll in one end, and packaged product - whether motion picture or still film rolls - comes out the end. Perhaps with there being some straightforward transfer of intermediate products in the midst of the procedure.
That relative automation and inter-connectivity is critical to keeping prices at least within reach.
And the fact that they have nothing in that set of highly automated machinery that works for creating the 100 foot bulk rolls of still film is why Kodak branded bulk still film is relatively so expensive.

lamerko · Oct 14, 2024

MattKing said:
Or if they refer you to any potential retail oriented sources.

Unfortunately, in Europe, everyone gives up immediately when they hear Ektachrome. Well, they sell super 8, even 16mm, but when they hear 35mm - immediately a polite refusal.

MattKing · Oct 14, 2024

lamerko said:
Unfortunately, in Europe, everyone gives up immediately when they hear Ektachrome. Well, they sell super 8, even 16mm, but when they hear 35mm - immediately a polite refusal.

Understood - but that may change as a result of the apparent change in policy of Eastman Kodak themselves.
Before people started re-purposing those 400 foot loads for still film, there wouldn't have been much of a market for for the retailers in "small" orders - 1 or 2 rolls.
Basically no-one uses 35mm film for home movies or high school movie projects.

Lachlan Young · Oct 14, 2024

koraks said:
So there's no need for them to assign an entire master roll to either motion or still; they can confection a mixture of both from the same roll.

It's more what happens after the slitting - and/ or if there are sectors/ sectors of slits that need to be removed (as I understand it, there will be a quality report that defines that in XY terms with each roll) in terms of what are acceptable defects per m2 between the various formats (which will have their own go/ no go tolerances - 24/25 fps and a single frame are perceived differently. On the other hand, it may be that everything is done to a single standard with the E100 make - the question will really be how many coating events a year there are - stills demand would probably be covered by one for each of the 3 substrates, but feature film/ tv/ streaming demand could easily swallow an entire minimum coating event for one production.

dokko · Oct 14, 2024

In the early 2000, here in Germany Kodak Motion was never selling motion picture film to consumers, only film productions. If you were a hobby filmmaker you'd buy through resellers.

They had an office here in Berlin with 3-4 employees coordinating all the film stock for the different production, with a fridge with some rolls for emergency.

At that time, there were also three major labs for motion picture film processing with excellent quality control in Berlin, and a small one for Super8 and 16mm.

after the rise of digital filmmaking, the film market collapsed. the Berlin office closed down and there was a single Kodak employee for all film productions in Germany. At some point we had a small project we wanted to shoot in b/w and Kodak Germany didn't have 5 rolls of 5222 Double-X left in stock, so they had to order it from Kodak France.

(Ironically, the small Berlin Lab is the only one that survived in Germany and now also does all of the 35mm film work - Arri had a fantastic lab in Munich, which also closed).

so for all I know, Kodak selling single rolls of 35mm motion picture films to consumers directly was never a common thing and they must have been desperate if they've done it for a while.

I wonder what would happen if a company wanted to order 10 rolls of 100D for re-spooling. If Kodak motion turns that down, that would be a clear indication that they have some agreement with Kodak Alaris about not competing on the photo market.

Samu · Oct 14, 2024

koraks said:
Seems like Kodak has been creating some barriers for this: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/kodak-no-longer-selling-e100d-directly-to-customers.209595/

This is very bad news. This begun when Fuji slide films disappeared from the market, and Alaris hiked the price of Ektachrome in 135 format to about 30 euros per roll. Bulk film costs about one third of this price, if available. The retailers of cine film started to limit sales of 35 mm Ekrachrome to "delivery to projects only" in many European countries. I knew one supplier in Helsinki, Finland, but unfortunately it went bankrupt recently.

It does not look bright for the future of slide film in general. Besides the film, projectors are not more made, and slide frames become herder to buy.

MattKing said:
Understood - but that may change as a result of the apparent change in policy of Eastman Kodak themselves.
Before people started re-purposing those 400 foot loads for still film, there wouldn't have been much of a market for for the retailers in "small" orders - 1 or 2 rolls.
Basically no-one uses 35mm film for home movies or high school movie projects.

The stardard practice with European cine film retailers is "Prices on request. We supply only for motion picure projectsČ. So, they will refuse if somebody wants to buy a single 400 ft roll of 35 mm Ektachrome. I knew one supplier in Helsinki, Mutascan / Elokuvakonepaja, who didn't care, but unfortunately the shop went bankrupt. This means, unfortunately, that in Europe for the time being, only slide film readily available will be teh 30 euro Alaris Ektachrome. Fuji films, and handrolled versions of D100, such as Flic Film can often be bought with limitations like 3 rolls per customer. Adding costs for shipping, this is not feasible.

I don't get why this stock is so heavily overpriced in Europe. B&H price is $21.00, when European prices begin from EUR 28, over $30 in US currency. Same doesn't apply to any of the movie stocks, such as 16 mm or even Superi8, but only the Alatis stuff.

Samu · Oct 14, 2024

dokko said:
In the early 2000, here in Germany Kodak Motion was never selling motion picture film to consumers, only film productions. If you were a hobby filmmaker you'd buy through resellers.

They had an office here in Berlin with 3-4 employees coordinating all the film stock for the different production, with a fridge with some rolls for emergency.

At that time, there were also three major labs for motion picture film processing with excellent quality control in Berlin, and a small one for Super8 and 16mm.

after the rise of digital filmmaking, the film market collapsed. the Berlin office closed down and there was a single Kodak employee for all film productions in Germany. At some point we had a small project we wanted to shoot in b/w and Kodak Germany didn't have 5 rolls of 5222 Double-X left in stock, so they had to order it from Kodak France.

(Ironically, the small Berlin Lab is the only one that survived in Germany and now also does all of the 35mm film work - Arri had a fantastic lab in Munich, which also closed).

so for all I know, Kodak selling single rolls of 35mm motion picture films to consumers directly was never a common thing and they must have been desperate if they've done it for a while.

I wonder what would happen if a company wanted to order 10 rolls of 100D for re-spooling. If Kodak motion turns that down, that would be a clear indication that they have some agreement with Kodak Alaris about not competing on the photo market.

Officially, Kodok won't sell, unless there is some kinf of agreement. The terms published on Kodak.com say that Kodak assumes their produce is not resold in altered packaging, differing by any means from the original packaging probided by them. That said, they are lax with 16 mm or 8mm stuff. as there is no Kodak Alaris product costing the triple in the market.

koraks · Oct 15, 2024

Moderator note:
I've merged two threads that started to converge strongly. The older one was about Kodak limiting sales to small customers, the second one was specifically about European availability/sources of E100D. Some redundancy will remain in the resulting merged thread. There may be some apparent inconsistenties in the conversation as a result.

lamerko · Oct 15, 2024

I don't want to resell, I want to use. Kodak have a catalog, announced prices, minimum quantities. There is no limit anywhere on WHO can buy - you just have to agree to the minimum quantities, and for Ektachrome it is 1 unit. It may be curious, but 65mm Vision3 until recently had a minimum of 16 pieces of 1000" rolls, but since June they are already 1 piece each. And the order is direct, by email. According to the catalogs, this has not been changed yet.

koraks · Oct 15, 2024

lamerko said:
There is no limit anywhere on WHO can buy

Well, it looks like this is changing now. New ownership of Alaris, a doubtful marketing strategy by Alaris, some management changes at Eastman, possibly some pressure from major parties that don't want their cine-film reselling business to be threatened by smaller parties...there's some interests at work between a few key players here. In the end, I doubt those interests really serve the manufacturer itself, Eastman. The way it looks to me, Eastman will have to make a strategic choice within the next few years and arguably, it would be wise if they chose to side with the end user, not their present business partners (which may not be as sustainable/enduring as they might argue).

Samu · Oct 15, 2024

koraks said:
Well, it looks like this is changing now. New ownership of Alaris, a doubtful marketing strategy by Alaris, some management changes at Eastman, possibly some pressure from major parties that don't want their cine-film reselling business to be threatened by smaller parties...there's some interests at work between a few key players here. In the end, I doubt those interests really serve the manufacturer itself, Eastman. The way it looks to me, Eastman will have to make a strategic choice within the next few years and arguably, it would be wise if they chose to side with the end user, not their present business partners (which may not be as sustainable/enduring as they might argue).

There is no question that Alaris is not interested in other companies selling Ektachrome for the double price, when their prive is triple the price. Especially their pricing for Ektachrome in 135 size in Europe is possible only, if they will have a virtual monopoly to slide film. As Fuji films can't be bought in any quantities having any effect on their business (often sold with limits of 3 rolls per customer, if available at all), this kind of marketing strategy is what they are aiming on. Sky high prices with the monopolist "take or leave" attitude. I sincerely hope the situation will get better, because this will kill the a;ready small community, who still shoot slides and even develop E-6.. With Ektachrome "50 euros a roll", and no alternatives, who will buy slide frames or kits for E-6? You get the point.

lamerko · Oct 15, 2024

At the end of the day, even though this Ektachrome film is a cinema stock film, I don't believe there will be any sales along those lines. Not everyone is Nolan and not everyone has a similar budget for qualitatively new cinematography techniques...
I'm sure sales are coming, but probably almost entirely from small dealers and end customers using it in still photography.

koraks · Oct 15, 2024

Samu said:
Sky high prices with the monopolist "take or leave" attitude.

It's an attitude that won't be sustainable in the long run for a number of reasons - one of them being that the likes of you and me will not put up with it and just go do something else. Shoot digital, B&W, do color gum printing etc. Alaris may feel they're a monopolist, but from a perspective of Porter's 5 forces model applied to our hobby situation, there are plenty of substitutes that we can have fun with.
Speaking for myself, this is one of the reasons I moved away from E6 years ago. I just can't be bothered with €1 per frame; I'd rather go and have fun with something else.

Ask @Henning Serger about the color film price policy; he has a pretty strong opinion about it and I'm not sure I can disagree with him, either...

lamerko said:
even though this Ektachrome film is a cinema stock film, I don't believe there will be any sales along those lines

IDK; some sources assert that Ektachrome is pretty darn big. To be honest, I can't really make sense of it, but "so they say..."

Samu · Oct 15, 2024

koraks said:
It's an attitude that won't be sustainable in the long run for a number of reasons - one of them being that the likes of you and me will not put up with it and just go do something else. Shoot digital, B&W, do color gum printing etc. Alaris may feel they're a monopolist, but from a perspective of Porter's 5 forces model applied to our hobby situation, there are plenty of substitutes that we can have fun with.
Speaking for myself, this is one of the reasons I moved away from E6 years ago. I just can't be bothered with €1 per frame; I'd rather go and have fun with something else.

Ask @Henning Serger about the color film price policy; he has a pretty strong opinion about it and I'm not sure I can disagree with him, either...

IDK; some sources assert that Ektachrome is pretty darn big. To be honest, I can't really make sense of it, but "so they say..."

You can't even do color gum printing here, because the Lithuanian government has set a rule prohibiting sales of potassium dichromate for people not having an official license for handling poisons in their work. Same goes with sulfuric acid needed in processes like B&W reversal. We are pretty much stuck with the products available commercially, and it is getting worse year by year. I wouldn't be hugely amazed, if the environmental agencies will limit sales of common fixer to professional labs in the next 20 years.

lamerko · Oct 15, 2024

Sulfuric acid is a pain everywhere, but maybe you can find battery electrolyte that will work. About the restriction on using dichromate - that's bad, but maybe it makes some sense. I've seen videos on YouTube where various vloggers use chemistry for the show in absolutely insane ways that would probably make some of their subscribers try the same thing...

miha · Oct 15, 2024

Ektachrome 100D is available respooled for €15 a roll, which seems a viable alternative (for now).

Henning Serger · Oct 15, 2024

koraks said:
Ask @Henning Serger about the color film price policy; he has a pretty strong opinion about it and I'm not sure I can disagree with him, either...

Well, it isn't an opinion, but just the result of many many years of scientific market research.......But it is a complex topic, not suited to such a thread here.
Maybe I can publish the most important results here on photrio in the future, in a dedicated thread.

Best regards,
Henning

koraks · Oct 15, 2024

Henning Serger said:
Maybe I can publish the most important results here on photrio in the future, in a dedicated thread.

You'd be very welcome to, Henning. And I acknowledge it's indeed complex stuff, and that part of it may not be in your interest to divulge for commercial reasons.

Alan Edward Klein · Oct 15, 2024

Provia 100 is still around and a competitor to Ektachrome. SO prices have to stop somewhere. There's also negative color film as a competitor. There is competition.

Also, don't assume the price for Ektachrome will go up more now that Cine Ektachrome won;t be sold for use as still film. Since Alaris will get a larger market share, they could lower prices as they may make better deals with Eastman as they act better in concert now that Alaris is under new management. Frankly, I think Kodak film prices have gone up so much becasue Eastman has been sticking Alaris with higher arbitrary prices and Alaris has been forced to pass them along. What's still not clear to me is what the original bankruptcy rules require in the area of markups from Eastman? IS it limited? A formula? What's stopping them from charging Alaris whatever they want?

koraks · Oct 15, 2024

Alan Edward Klein said:
There's also negative color film as a competitor.

There's not much that even comes close to Kodak's product offering in terms of quality though. It's virtually a monopoly. On the E6 front, Fuji doesn't keep up with demand, evidently.

Alan Edward Klein said:
Since Alaris will get a larger market share, they could lower prices as they may make better deals with Eastman as they act better in concert now that Alaris is under new management.

They might on the other hand also exploit the near-monopoly they have by continuing to raise prices.

Alan Edward Klein said:
Frankly, I think Kodak film prices have gone up so much becasue Eastman has been sticking Alaris with higher arbitrary prices and Alaris has been forced to pass them along.

Maybe, but I doubt that Alaris has been the one following Eastman's lead. I suspect Alaris has been a whole lot more autonomous in setting prices than we (including me) believed thus far.

Alan Edward Klein said:
What's still not clear to me is what the original bankruptcy rules require in the area of markups from Eastman? IS it limited? A formula? What's stopping them from charging Alaris whatever they want?

I don't see how bankruptcy rules come into play when it comes to negotiating prices between two strategic partners. Maybe it's a US-specific thing?
Also, keep in mind that Alaris is also entirely free to charge what they see fit from their customers.

We just don't know for sure who is calling the shots in this situation; all I do see is that the collaboration of Eastman and Alaris, possibly with some influence from CineStill and others, results in the pack of them trying to exert pressure onto the market. Whomever is trying to exploit their strategic position, the net results is that end users will ultimately walk away. There's only so much we're willing to pay for a hobby, and there's plenty of other fun stuff to do in terms of photography.

MultiFormat Shooter · Oct 15, 2024

Has anyone heard anything about Vision 3 500T (5219) or Eastman XX (5222) be affected by this policy, or is it only Ektachrome 100D (5294)? I use the 500T, when I need to push a color negative film, and sometimes I like the look of Eastman XX, in-place of the modern emulsions.

koraks · Oct 15, 2024

I really don't know, but given the likely causes, none of which are particularly Ektachrome-exclusive, I can only imagine this will extend to the other cine films as well.

MattKing · Oct 15, 2024

Unless of course it has nothing to do with Kodak Alaris at all, and is all about Eastman Kodak not wanting to have anything more to do with the costs and headaches involved in one-off single roll sales.

Samu · Oct 15, 2024

MultiFormat Shooter said:
Has anyone heard anything about Vision 3 500T (5219) or Eastman XX (5222) be affected by this policy, or is it only Ektachrome 100D (5294)? I use the 500T, when I need to push a color negative film, and sometimes I like the look of Eastman XX, in-place of the modern emulsions.

Looks like the bigger resellers such as Andec have this in stock as before. Strict policy seems to be only for Ektachrome, and only in 35mm format. 16 mm film is sold freely.

Alan Edward Klein said:
Provia 100 is still around and a competitor to Ektachrome. SO prices have to stop somewhere. There's also negative color film as a competitor. There is competition.

Also, don't assume the price for Ektachrome will go up more now that Cine Ektachrome won;t be sold for use as still film. Since Alaris will get a larger market share, they could lower prices as they may make better deals with Eastman as they act better in concert now that Alaris is under new management. Frankly, I think Kodak film prices have gone up so much becasue Eastman has been sticking Alaris with higher arbitrary prices and Alaris has been forced to pass them along. What's still not clear to me is what the original bankruptcy rules require in the area of markups from Eastman? IS it limited? A formula? What's stopping them from charging Alaris whatever they want?

Provia is around, but it is sporadic at best. Often with limitations like 3 rolls per order. I have bought some straight from Fuji, but at most of the time, all slide films are sold out. Our local dealers ask exorbitant prices like 28€ a roll of Provia. You can´t develop just one roll in two months, because E6 chemistry will not keep. Sending to a lab is not an option for me at least - it is not funny, and the results can be very bad. For most photofinishers, it is not viable to maintain a replenished minilab for E6 any more. Much more common is running some films through Jobo every two weeks, and often with old, expired chemistry, or some cheap 3-bath kit beginning by the letter C, bu people not very familiar with E6 process.

I would not complain for prices like 20-22€ a roll of slide film, but Ektachrome here is now 29.90 at the cheapest. Another store asks 35€, No Provia in the whole country of Lithuania since August, and Velvia 50 from 26€ upwards, with just some rolls available.

What is also getting hard, are the accessories like slide frames. Nothing here, must be ordered from Germany. They are often sold out, and their price has doubled in just one year. There are only two brands available - Agfa CS-II style, plastic frames wit no glass by Reflecta and Kaiser.. Luckily, projector lamps and some other spare parts for projectors can still be bought - mostly from specialist shops in Germany.

I do understand many photographers and people developing film and paper are moving out of slides, or have done this before, For ne though, the first color films I developed in the 1980äs were E6, and first color prints I made were Cibachrome. This is at least partly the reason I haven´t given up yet.

Alan Edward Klein · Oct 15, 2024

MattKing said:
Unless of course it has nothing to do with Kodak Alaris at all, and is all about Eastman Kodak not wanting to have anything more to do with the costs and headaches involved in one-off single roll sales.

What does the bankruptcy deal require them to do regarding film production for Alaris?

Kodak no longer selling E100D directly to customers?

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