Kodak hints at sale of film unit...

[PHOTOTONE]

But the point I was making is Bergger is a marketing organization. It certainly is possible that they wouldn't be able to exactly duplicate the products made for them by Forte, but if they wish to remain in business, then they will find SOME products of similar style to replace them. They may not attempt to call them the same product names now attached to Forte provided products, but there will be SOME products. Since they are just a marketing and possibly "design" organization, I would think Bergger will still be here, regardless of Forte. There are several paper and film coating plants that I am sure would welcome Berggers business.

 

[aldevo]

I certainly hope you are correct. At this point all we can do is wait and see.

And shoot film!!

 

[FilmIs4Ever]

From Photo.net post:

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/technology/artcle1343516.ecei

 

[jd callow]

From Photo.net post:

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/technology/artcle1343516.ecei

I tried to fix your link and made it worse.... sorry

 

[FilmIs4Ever]

Quite alright. Let me try:

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/technology/article1343516.ece

Just copy and paste into your browser (link before had a space in the word "article). It normally wouldn't be a big deal reposting this, but sheesj JD, this was 10 minutes of hard work, fighting a bloody nose off with the other.

I posted a big rant against Perez on another forum when I posted this link there, but I'll forego that owing to mty hindered state and leave it to others to tear that little ink loading rat apart. . .

 

[Photo Engineer]

Karl's hindered state is a gallon of hooch!

Just kidding Karl. You certainly don't deserve that.

Ron

 

[aldevo]

Quite alright. Let me try:

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/technology/article1343516.ece

Just copy and paste into your browser (link before had a space in the word "article). It normally wouldn't be a big deal reposting this, but sheesj JD, this was 10 minutes of hard work, fighting a bloody nose off with the other.

I posted a big rant against Perez on another forum when I posted this link there, but I'll forego that owing to mty hindered state and leave it to others to tear that little ink loading rat apart. . .

Well, I guess the takeaway from the article is "Film will follow its own desitny". You and I may not care much for the man who uttered those words - but I can't argue they aren't true.

We just need to wait and see what happens. I think a sale is likely (don't ask me when or to who) but what that means for product availability is anyone's guess at this stage.

 

[jd callow]

My fear is if they sell then the new owners won't the money to continue r&d. It would be better if they spun it off maybe via an IPO. Although, I have no idea as to whether that would work or is even possible.

 

[aldevo]

My fear is if they sell then the new owners won't the money to continue r&d. It would be better if they spun it off maybe via an IPO. Although, I have no idea as to whether that would work or is even possible.

I don't think an IPO is feasible. It's a dwindling market (hopefully it can reach a bottom soon) and that's generally not good IPO material. Maybe there are exceptions...but I can't think of any in the last couple years.

But I think a private equity buyout is possible. Whether the buyer will consider still pictorial film useful to their operation is the question. We all know that cinematic film is holding up better than the still picture stuff.

R&D? Not sure I want any! After all the time I spend learning a product, the LAST thing I want are changes.

I'd be perfectly happy if a buyer did nothing more than preserve the existing catalog and offer a bit of support.

 

[Curt]

No hints at the sale, in fact its demise would be the business choice of Perez, cut the competition from the start.

 

[subtxt]

. . .
A more likely occurance is Kodak subcontracting compact digital camera construction, or selling off that division, while retaining the profitable chip making group. Another possibility is moving more production to China, though unless the Chinese government changes their foreign ownership stance, it might be quite a while until that happens, if ever. In other words, several things need to happen at Kodak prior to anything happening with consumer films....

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
Dead Link Removed

This actually happened last August when Kodak off-loaded its digicam manufacturing operations to Singaporean-firm Flextronics (preserving some design and R&D aspects). Press release here: http://www.kodak.com/eknec/PageQuerier.jhtml?pq-path=2709&pq-locale=en_US&gpcid=0900688a80589ba7

News article here:
http://www.freelanceuk.com/news/1826.shtml

Don't know if this really brings anything to the discussion, but I suppose you can add it to the x-ray/health imaging sell-off list.

 

[HerrBremerhaven]

This actually happened last August when Kodak off-loaded its digicam manufacturing operations to Singaporean-firm Flextronics (preserving some design and R&D aspects). Press release here: http://www.kodak.com/eknec/PageQuerier.jhtml?pq-path=2709&pq-locale=en_US&gpcid=0900688a80589ba7

News article here:
http://www.freelanceuk.com/news/1826.shtml

Don't know if this really brings anything to the discussion, but I suppose you can add it to the x-ray/health imaging sell-off list.

Actually, it does add to the discussion. Off-shoring labour and manufacturing can allow some cost cutting. Kodak currently have a running agreement with Lucky Film in China. However, as reported in the financial news a few years ago, Kodak wanted a larger stake in Lucky Film than the Chinese government wanted to allow. It could very well be that they try to gain a larger share at some time in the future, or that negotiations in this matter might still be happening with the Chinese government and Lucky Film.

The implication of that might be off-shoring most film production to China. Long term might see all films produced through Lucky Film, but that would be huge speculation. Best I recall, the current agreement with Lucky Films has another sixteen (16) years to go. I think it would be quite safe to imagine Kodak, or Kodak licensed, films being available for at least that long a time period, if not longer.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
Dead Link Removed

 

[aldevo]

Interesting points. Here are some possible counterarguments.

1) Ultimately, I suspect that having a production infrastructure that is "right-sized" relative to demand and allows for flexible scheduling is pretty critical to being able to sustain production profitably. Based on what several posters with specialized knowledge have posted - this hard to execute. Lucky Film has pretty substantial capacity.

2) There's an accute labor shortage in China and the government does still, to an extent, exert some influence as to where workers end up. I don't think analog photography is of great strategic value...

3) Wages are rising rather quicly in China

Here's an interesting article regarding 2 and 3:

ere's an interesting article: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/03/b...=49c0d472886e1f39&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=

4) There are raw material shortages in China and the relative weakness of the currency makes these expensive. And silver prices, for one, are going through the roof...

Honestly, I'm not sure the UK isn't better suited for this stuff - at least for the moment. The economy is strong, but there isn't really a labor shortage and wage growth is contained, the currency is strong, and the company has manged to survive at least a couple downsizing efforts.

I'm hopeful that film production will remain viable in several parts of the world...

 

[Photo Engineer]

I guess you missed the news that Kodak has moved color film production back to the US. This has been posted here and on PN for over a year now.

PE

 

[film_guy]

So what does all these mean for Kodak B&W and color films?

 

[radiantdarkroom]

Not Surprized

I think this a good thread, it informs on possible outcomes in the Future. We should be prepared psychologically. It's a long sh*t rich betrayal since the emergence of digital. I see less and less film products in the stores around here (New Brunswick, Canada) and I constantly get the nagging from other photogs, "get a digital camera yet". Digital makes sense for anyone who isn't an artist and depends on making commercial cash here in New Brunswick. So that leaves us.

Cheers

 

[Photo Engineer]

The bottom line to me is this.

Lets assume the conventional photography line beomes independant some way or other, spun off, sold or it mutinies (don't laugh). Whatever.

It will help us because that unit will not have a digital albatross hanging around its neck rotting, and they will certainly be more cognizant of the customers needs as film and maybe paper will be their only products.

So, I think we will win either way. Kodak keeps it and we keep getting Kodak products, or Kodak divests itself of the unit and we keep getting Kodak products.

PE

 

[PHOTOTONE]

The bottom line to me is this.

Kodak keeps it and we keep getting Kodak products, or Kodak divests itself of the unit and we keep getting Kodak products.

PE

HMM..the experience so far is..Kodak kept it (B/W paper) and we stopped getting it.

Kodak sold it..(Kodak chemistry) and we can still get it.

It's a 50/50 chance either way, it seems.

 

[aldevo]

HMM..the experience so far is..Kodak kept it (B/W paper) and we stopped getting it.

Kodak sold it..(Kodak chemistry) and we can still get it.

It's a 50/50 chance either way, it seems.

Kodak "kept" B/W paper but they moved the primary facility for its manufacture to Brazil and they had already exited the paper support business.

Don't forget the chemistry business was only sold a couple months ago and that it can take considerable time for B/W chemsitry inventory to turn over. In other words the absence of any discontinued products may not make its presence known for some time.

I have not heard that anything has been discontinued yet, but let's not count the chickens yet...

 

[aldevo]

The bottom line to me is this.

Lets assume the conventional photography line beomes independant some way or other, spun off, sold or it mutinies (don't laugh). Whatever.

It will help us because that unit will not have a digital albatross hanging around its neck rotting, and they will certainly be more cognizant of the customers needs as film and maybe paper will be their only products.

So, I think we will win either way. Kodak keeps it and we keep getting Kodak products, or Kodak divests itself of the unit and we keep getting Kodak products.

PE

Fingers-crossed...

If a management buyout can happen in the UK, I suppose it can happen here. But there's always the question of finance.

I shudder to think we'd have lost Ilford if its restructuring of a couple years back had needed to happen even 6 months later than it did. In late 2004 the real estate market in the UK was fairly cool, but it started to pick up considerably in early-mid 2005.

 

[fparnold]

Well, to inject a note of pointless optimism, years ago I worked for Allied-Signal. They had some underperforming units which they spun off as the "Henley Group". Once free of Allied-Signal's sociopathic management, they did quite well, some of them actually becoming stronger (Fisher Scientific coming to mind).

Maybe a spun-off film unit can do the same, without having the challenge of meeting the required numbers for the behemoth that is Kodak. This of course is just whistling in the dark, but we can dream. Pity nobody managed to save Agfapan 100 when they could, so I wish Kodak's film division, even with a reduced portfolio, the best of luck and skill

 

[PHOTOTONE]

While you guys pretty much talk about black and white film, actually that is the least endangered species of photo materials. The real critical thing here is the production of transparecy film. I use a lot of it in my studio. I have more and more limited choices all the time. Now just 2 manufacturers of sheet film transparency film. I worry. I don't worry about b/w. yet.

 

[PHOTOTONE]

The small producers of b/w film absolutely cannot make color transparency film. as far as I know.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Color transparency will probably be the first color film to bite the dust. Sales are falling fast.

PE

 

[Paul Howell]

Color transparency will probably be the first color film to bite the dust. Sales are falling fast.

PE

The local drug stores still carry (on and off) TMAX 400, but have stopped selling all slide films, I have not seen any in perhaps a year, I think that at least one Supermarket Chain still carries an E6. I am not sure if Walmart still sells a slide film. I stopped shooting E6 when both Fuji and Kodak stopped producing direct positive paper.