Kodak Hardener Compatibility

[Pentode]

I have been using the Kodak Rapid Fixer that comes in two part kits recently. I tend to only use the hardener (part B) when I'm using certain films, otherwise I just use part A (fixer). What that means is I use a lot more of part A than I'll ever use of part B, but every time I buy fixer it comes with another bottle of hardener.

So, here's my question: Will Kodak's hardener work with any ammonium thiosulfate rapid fixer? If it will than I could buy any rapid fixer (that doesn't come with a bottle of hardener) until I use up the hardener I have and only buy the Kodak when I need more hardener. For extra credit: If it will work, would it be used in the same dilution or would it depend upon the formulation of the other brand's fixer?

Thanks in advance if anyone knows this!
Forgive me if this has been addressed before. I did a search and came up empty.

 

[mshchem]

Ilford specifically says No to hardener with their standard rapid fixer. I use the hardener. My biggest reason is I use a drum dryer for fiber base prints. Without the hardener prints stick. I also am old school. Modern film developed at 75F or below doesn’t really need hardener.

Ilford (I think ) stopped selling liquid hardener, not sure why other than Ilford campaigns against hardener. There are some processes that can require hardener, intensification, toning. Most of this is archaic. People give all sorts of reasons why hardener is really bad. I don't buy it.

 

[Photo Engineer]

The hardener can cause serious precipitation of some fixers. You would have to "waste" a batch to find out. Fixers that work have to be acidic at about pH 5 - 6 and thus it rules out TF4 as one example, but there are others.

PE

 

[MattKing]

I use my bottles of hardener whenever I tone prints, so they don't go to waste. Prints that go through a toning regimen often come out much more susceptible to physical damage, so hardener corrects that.
Hardener isn't inherently bad, it just greatly extends the necessary washing times for film and paper and, if it is used in print fixer, makes toning much more difficult.
Ilford Rapid Fixer isn't suitable for using hardener - apparently its buffering capacity is the issue.
Ilford Hypam fixer is designed to be usable with hardener. I'd suggest contacting Harman Tech Service and ask if they have tested it with the Kodak Part B material.

 

[Pentode]

Thanks, all, for your responses. I'll see if I can contact some manufacturers and find out if there's compatibility.

The hardener can cause serious precipitation of some fixers.

I was hoping you'd chime in! I would consider this a pretty important consideration. I suppose I could mix up a mini-batch, reducing all the quantities by 75%, and see if it precipitates. I'd be wasting a lot less fixer if it all goes egg-shaped.

I don't usually use hardener for film but a few films, such as Efke and Ilford's P4 Surveillance have very soft emulsions so I like to play it safe. I go back and forth with Foma - I'm not so sure it needs it but the spec sheet I have for Foma 100 recommends hardener IIRC. Everything else I use gets fixed without hardener.

If I can't find another fixer that's compatible with Kodak's part B my other option would be to only use the Kodak fixer for films I use hardener on and stick with another brand for everything else. That wouldn't be a horrible option, I suppose.

 

[MattKing]

Do you use fixer for prints?

 

[darkroommike]

• You can buy Kodak Rapid Fixer Part A separately but it is a 5 gallon collapsible bladder.
• Ilford Rapid Fixer warns to not using a hardener.
• Ilford Hypam fixer can apparently be used with a hardener, hard to find the hardener, Ilford does not recommend the hardener for paper only film.

 

[mshchem]

For the first 10,000 years ( ) people used Kodak F5 or F6 fixer . It all was hardening fixer. Then in the 70's East Street Gallery invented the archival washer, thus sewing the fear of good old fixer into the hearts and minds of all.

Here's a bit of advice, follow the recommendation of ILFORD. They have done marvelous work that is well documented. Two bath fixing, short fixing times with fresh, non-hardening fixer. I agree with Matt a hardening bath after toning is a good idea.

I have never had any problems toning prints that have been fixed with either Kodak F5, F6, or Kodak Rapid Fixer with hardener. I always tone right as it comes out of the 2nd fixer bath. I give it a quick 30 seconds wash after fix then go directly into KRST mixed with KHCA. I use the selenium toner strong 1+3. I get full toning in about 2 minutes. Then rinse and into hypo clearing agent with agitation for 3-4 minutes . I do preliminary washes in a large Arkay washing tray, then I use an archival washer. I fill the washer, then turn off the water. I have installed a pump that circulates the water, rapidly in the washer. After 10 minutes, I drain all the water from the washer, refill and repeat. 3 times is usually plenty.
Every archival washer I have used, can have problems with tiny air bubbles, on the print surface, if you don't use high flow rates. Temperature , time and flow of water determines the rate of diffusion of the chemicals out of the gelatin. Constantly flowing fresh water isn't required. With agitation and time the fixer in the paper and the recirculating water will reach an equilibrium.

 

[mshchem]

thus sewing

Thus sowing, sorry

 

[Pentode]

Do you use fixer for prints?

I'm not printing at home yet, although I hope to be within a few months. I'll figure all that out when I get there.

For now I use a local community darkroom that's just set up for very basic printing and I use whatever chemistry they provide - which is why I hope to be set up to print at home soon.

• You can buy Kodak Rapid Fixer Part A separately but it is a 5 gallon collapsible bladder.
• Ilford Rapid Fixer warns to not using a hardener.
• Ilford Hypam fixer can apparently be used with a hardener, hard to find the hardener, Ilford does not recommend the hardener for paper only film.

5 gallons might be a bit overreaching.... I'd really have to step up my game! The possibility of Kodak's hardener working with Hypam is intriguing, though.
In the long run it may be a lot less headache to just use the Kodak fixer when I need hardener and use something else at other times. At least I'll know I don't have to worry about compatibility.

Once again, the collective knowledge of the membership of this forum amazes me. Thanks again, everyone, for your input.

 

[MattKing]

In the long run it may be a lot less headache to just use the Kodak fixer when I need hardener and use something else at other times.

Or do what I do - use the Kodak fixer part A without hardener, and use the little bottles of part B hardener when I tone prints, with the rest slowly piling up in a heavy plastic storage container.
I put together a toning demonstration/workshop for my Darkroom Group last weekend. That used up a couple of the little bottles - 11 people experimenting with various toners will do that.
Harman Tech Service do participate here, and in my experience do respond if you "Start a Conversation" with them. I'd suggest sending them a link to this thread and the MSDS for Parts A and B of Kodak Rapid Fixer.
That MSDS (link courtesy of Freestyle Photographic) indicates that the composition of the Part B hardener is as follows:
3. Composition/information on ingredients
Weight percent Components - (CAS-No.)
15 - 20 Aluminium sulphate (10043-01-3)
10 - < 15 Sulphuric acid (7664-93-9)
Here is the link (the Part B is referenced in the second half of the document): https://www.freestylephoto.biz/pdf/msds/kodak/KodakRapidFix_2x5gal_PartAB.pdf
FWIW, it is the Part B hardener that makes it difficult to ship the Kodak product.

 

[Pentode]

Thanks, Matt. That's extremely helpful. I will see what I can find out.

 

[NedL]

Is there a way to use the part B hardener separately?

 

[MattKing]

Is there a way to use the part B hardener separately?

Mix it one part concentrate to 13 parts water.
I've not been successful in finding any definitive information on how long to leave a print or film in the working solution, or what the capacity may be.
I use it for two minutes on my recently toned RC prints before washing them. And stop using the working solution after I have put enough prints through it as seem appropriate (i.e. I guess).

 

[NedL]

Mix it one part concentrate to 13 parts water...

Thanks! Good enough! I can think of some times it could be useful.

 

[Pentode]

Is there a way to use the part B hardener separately?

Good thinking! That hadn’t even occurred to me.

 

[Pentode]

I just spent a while reading the MSDS for each fixer sold by Freestyle.

Interesting, but not entirely helpful as the MSDS is only required to show hazardous ingredients and, therefore, doesn’t really tell the whole story.

From what I can gather the Arista Premium Odorless Fixer is pretty similar to Kodak’s part A, so I may inquire further about it.

Hypam, on the other hand, is a sodium thiosulphite fixer so I’m less inclined to persue more information on it.

More and more it’s looking like my best bet will be to simply save the Kodak Rapid for times I need to use the hardener and move to a different product for the rest of the time. I’ll still try to get an answer about Arista, though.

 

[Anon Ymous]

... Hypam, on the other hand, is a sodium thiosulphite fixer so I’m less inclined to persue more information on it...

Hypam is certainly not a sodium thiosulfate based fixer, it's an ammonium thiosulfate, rapid fixer.

 

[Rudeofus]

Most hardening fixers I am aware of use some form of alum to harden the gelatin. Neutral to alkaline liquids will precipitate Aluminum Hydroxide, therefore alum works only if fixer pH is low. If you look at MSDS, you see that most fixer concentrates are less acidic than Kodak Rapid Fixer part A. BTW Freestyle has a smaller yet separate package of fixer plus hardener under the "Heico NH-5" name. Sadly this is one of the few instances in which Freestyle does not provide an MSDS, therefore I can't even dare a guess whether this Heico NH-5 fixer would work with Kodak Rapid Fixer part B.

 

[Pentode]

Hypam is certainly not a sodium thiosulfate based fixer, it's an ammonium thiosulfate, rapid fixer.

You’re absolutely correct. My apologies; I was getting a little cross-eyed after looking at so many MSDS and completely misread that one.

 

[Anon Ymous]

You’re absolutely correct. My apologies; I was getting a little cross-eyed after looking at so many MSDS and completely misread that one.

Apologies? What for?

 

[Pentode]

Apologies? What for?

Just for misspeaking. The internet waters are cloudy enough without me adding to the misinformation!