Kodak Gold Now Available in 120 - threads merged

[toulcaz31]

What is the third one?

I think they refer to the new Cinestill fundraising campaign. I am not sure we should call this a new film stock...

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

Exciting to think we've had three new colour film options in the last month or so!

Cinestill is going to start selling a film called 400D. It's likely this is similar to their 50D and 800T offerings in that it is Eastman Kodak Vision3 film with the remjet removed. In this case, I'm guessing it's 250D. They claim that C41 and the lack of remjet is an effective speed increaser (though not in 50D for some reason), i.e. 500T becomes 800T, and now 250D is 400D. In my experience there is no real speed increase and you should rate the film at 250 for normal exposures if it is indeed 250D.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

Here is the B&H Photo listing for Gold 200: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...1075597_professional_gold_200_120_5_pack.html

It's $49.95, so more expensive than Ektar at their current 'sale' price. But even if you look at the not marked down price Ektar is like $53 for a Pro Pack. I'm going to go ahead and call KA's attempt to launch an affordable 120 alternative to Portra and Ektar an embarrassing bust. Don't get me wrong, I like the film and I like more choices...but they should have just said that this is a new option for us, not a 25% less expensive option.

If they want to sell it to me direct I will sell it for 25% less than Ektar and Portra, but they don't!

 

[Sal Santamaura]

They no longer make their own acetate base, so it would not surprise me if they were intending to move to Estar for all 120.

I would be very excited to see 120 TMY-2 coated/sold on ESTAR rather than acetate. While I found 120 Bergger Pancro 400 far too grainy and unsharp for my taste, its polyester base completely solved acetate's damnable bulging toward the lens in reverse-curl film holders. May Kodak make the transition ASAP!

 

[BAP888]

Here is the B&H Photo listing for Gold 200: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...1075597_professional_gold_200_120_5_pack.html

It's $49.95, so more expensive than Ektar at their current 'sale' price. But even if you look at the not marked down price Ektar is like $53 for a Pro Pack. I'm going to go ahead and call KA's attempt to launch an affordable 120 alternative to Portra and Ektar an embarrassing bust. Don't get me wrong, I like the film and I like more choices...but they should have just said that this is a new option for us, not a 25% less expensive option.

If they want to sell it to me direct I will sell it for 25% less than Ektar and Portra, but they don't!

In my experience B&H and Adorama seldom have the best prices. They just benefit from their size and ubiquity/name recognition. It takes some work, but scouring the web using Google Shopping often reveals other retailers—often small local camera shops—with better prices, and often free shipping if you spend a reasonable amount ($50+ or $100+). And unlike the major outlets, many don’t bother to charge me sales tax, either.

 

[BrianShaw]

The market may be initially unstable and will likely settle as the product actually gets sold and delivered. It won't take long for users to figure out who offers the best combination of pricing and service.

No matter what... it's very impressive for Kodak to be supporting "amateur/professional" users of 120 with a classic film.

 

[perkeleellinen]

Adox Colour Mission, Kodak Gold
What is the third one?

As others have said, it 's the new CineStill film announced the same day: 400D. Of course it isn't a new film, it's Vision 3 250D, but it is a new option, especially in 120.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

Exactly illustrating my frustrations with distributors. Just middle-men serving no purpose other than increasing the end cost to consumers.

Hallelujah brother.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Kodak is not a giant empire anymore. Taking on a direct sales business model would bury them in unnecessary overhead, not to mention endless complaints not even worth their time, and would also no doubt piss off the distributors they already have. Likewise, the era of big traditional camera stores is largely over, and many of those which remain no longer have the purchasing clout to buy anything direct, and now rely on wholesalers for all kinds of things. I was a purchasing agent or buyer for a large, well-funded sales corporation (non-photo related) for several decades, and know what it takes to maintain that kind of manufacturer-direct loyalty. The sales volume of even the highly successful camera store a few miles down the street wasn't even 1% of what we did per day. Sales Reps are only a loyal as the size of your last purchase order. Sad, but true.

None of this is about philanthropy. Manufacturers are in the game to make money. And so are sales reps. They can't live on what camera stores pay their employees, not even close. Ya gotta concentrate on the large volume customers, or you'll starve. That's just they way it's always been. Wholesale distributors exist for sake of everything in between. Does that mean higher end-user prices? Yep. I don't like it either. But that's also why I have a big freezer holding film bought in volume when it was priced right for my own needs.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

Kodak is not a giant empire anymore. Taking on a direct sales business model would bury them in unnecessary overhead, not to mention endless complaints not even worth their time, and would also no doubt piss off the distributors they already have. Likewise, the era of big traditional camera stores is largely over, and many of those which remain no longer have the purchasing clout to buy anything direct, and now rely on wholesalers for all kinds of things. I was a purchasing agent or buyer for a large, well-funded sales corporation (non-photo related) for several decades, and know what it takes to maintain that kind of manufacturer-direct loyalty. The sales volume of even the highly successful camera store a few miles down the street wasn't even 1% of what we did per day. Sales Reps are only a loyal as the size of your last purchase order. Sad, but true.

None of this is about philanthropy. Manufacturers are in the game to make money. And so are sales reps. They can't live on what camera stores pay their employees, not even close. Ya gotta concentrate on the large volume customers, or you'll starve. That's just they way it's always been. Wholesale distributors exist for sake of everything in between. Does that mean higher end-user prices? Yep. I don't like it either. But that's also why I have a big freezer holding film bought in volume when it was priced right for my own needs.

Ok, but don't put out a press release that says this will be 25% less than Ektar and Portra when that's a promise you cannot keep. I'm not unrealistically asking for lower film prices, I don't actually think most film is too expensive generally. I'm just asking them to keep their promises.

Also, I'm not asking for direct to consumer sales. I'm asking for small photo labs to be able to create an account with Kodak and be able to order their products for resale. Nobody here can tell me that is too big of an ask, it's selling product...businesses large and small do it every day. I would love to throw away everyone's film after delivering scans but guess what, I have to ship it back to my customers. I have thousands of them across the country. I can think of 3 or 4 actual photo related business in the entire state of Maine that would like to buy direct from Kodak and re-sell. We're not talking about Amazon for film purchasing...we're talking about a few phone reps plus a warehouse and shipping team. If my wife and I can mange as much as 1000 rolls a week spread across hundreds of customers then KA can sell 3 photo stores in Maine some Gold 200 at whatever price Roberts Distributors is buying it for.

 

[Radost]

More samples https://www.instagram.com/p/CbXcGzFL6rS it’s looking really nice!

Can You put it on a photo website like Flickr? Instagram really sucks for photos

 

[Arcadia4]

That linked to document must be a lot older than the date it was linked to, because with still film Kodak hasn't had special, professional use only colour film products for many years.

This is possibly the latest from 2002. Kodak pro films cartons i have (portra / ektar) currently advise below 55f storage but ‘not essential’. No similar text on pro image.
https://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/e6-2002_12.pdf

 

[mshchem]

Ok, but don't put out a press release that says this will be 25% less than Ektar and Portra when that's a promise you cannot keep. I'm not unrealistically asking for lower film prices, I don't actually think most film is too expensive generally. I'm just asking them to keep their promises.

Also, I'm not asking for direct to consumer sales. I'm asking for small photo labs to be able to create an account with Kodak and be able to order their products for resale. Nobody here can tell me that is too big of an ask, it's selling product...businesses large and small do it every day. I would love to throw away everyone's film after delivering scans but guess what, I have to ship it back to my customers. I have thousands of them across the country. I can think of 3 or 4 actual photo related business in the entire state of Maine that would like to buy direct from Kodak and re-sell. We're not talking about Amazon for film purchasing...we're talking about a few phone reps plus a warehouse and shipping team. If my wife and I can mange as much as 1000 rolls a week spread across hundreds of customers then KA can sell 3 photo stores in Maine some Gold 200 at whatever price Roberts Distributors is buying it for.

This stuff probably has a wholesale price 25% lower, nothing says that the big retailers will pass on this savings.

Give it some time, Americans would freak out if we had VAT taxes, not 6% (in Iowa) that can be negated by using B&H credit card. I ordered 50 sheets of 8x10 sheet film from B&H late Thursday evening, B&H managed to ship before Shabbat, FedEx delivered the package to me yesterday, on Monday. Shipping like that is expensive.
Unique photo, when they have what has become a rare commodity, gives significant volume price breaks on 20 or more rolls. Sometimes shipping is free, sometimes UPS ground actual prices are charged.

I guarantee that if you called Unique or another sizable dealer a volume discount could be considered. Film is a rare commodity right now, look at Adox Color Mission, 15 minutes BAM, all gone!
The bottom line is that this is terrific news!!

Film is back!!

 

[DREW WILEY]

Well, Kodak itself in Rochester makes film, as well as certain industrial products like estar film base which they sell to other manufacturers. They apparently aren't themselves the marketing entity. Alaris is. But it wasn't all that long ago that private little camera stores did buy direct from that marketing branches of both Fuji and Kodak/Alaris. Locally, nowadays they simply don't seem to want to keep anyone on payroll bothering with it. Just buy it wholesale, and expect local customers to pay more for the convenience of picking it up in person locally, rather than the internet method. That business model seems to work for film at least; but it's sure backfired with darkroom papers. Lost my business anyway. I'll gladly pay a modest overcharge to help local businesses, but not an extra hundred bucks for a box of 16X20 paper.

I don't know if it's surfaced on this forum yet, but there has been a recent UTube tour of the Kodak plant circulating on certain other forums, with an entire hour so far dedicated just to the manufacture of film base. Other segments to follow. This could be an eye-opener for habitual complainers who act as if they could go out an make their own film cheaper in an old motorhome parked in the desert somewhere. The sheer scale of any coating operation mandates going big or forgetting it. The overhead and facilities costs must be staggering, not to mention currently gone wild petrochemical commodities pricing.
So the last thing they need is to juggle marketing monkeys too. Some of those facilities personnel are third-generation. Too bad the later CEO's got brought in with zero photographic background. But at least the demand for film is distinctly picking up.

 

[mshchem]

Well, Kodak itself in Rochester makes film, as well as certain industrial products like estar film base which they sell to other manufacturers. They apparently aren't themselves the marketing entity. Alaris is. But it wasn't all that long ago that private little camera stores did buy direct from that marketing branches of both Fuji and Kodak/Alaris. Locally, nowadays they simply don't seem to want to keep anyone on payroll bothering with it. Just buy it wholesale, and expect local customers to pay more for the convenience of picking it up in person locally, rather than the internet method. That business model seems to work for film at least; but it's sure backfired with darkroom papers. Lost my business anyway. I'll gladly pay a modest overcharge to help local businesses, but not an extra hundred bucks for a box of 16X20 paper.

I don't know if it's surfaced on this forum yet, but there has been a recent UTube tour of the Kodak plant circulating on certain other forums, with an entire hour so far dedicated just to the manufacture of film base. Other segments to follow. This could be an eye-opener for habitual complainers who act as if they could go out an make their own film cheaper in an old motorhome parked in the desert somewhere. The sheer scale of any coating operation mandates going big or forgetting it. The overhead and facilities costs must be staggering, not to mention currently gone wild petrochemical commodities pricing.
So the last thing they need is to juggle marketing monkeys too. Some of those facilities personnel are third-generation. Too bad the later CEO's got brought in with zero photographic background. But at least the demand for film is distinctly picking up.

I have seen the PET extrusion video. Extraordinary. I put a link to it here somewhere.

 

[MattKing]

The 25% announcement is actually quite extra-ordinary.
Manufacturers almost never make public their pricing information respecting the price they charge to distributors.
I'm guessing it is their attempt to indirectly put pressure on the distributors to pass on the savings.
The one major difference between Kodak, Ilford and Fuji respecting the distribution model is that Kodak doesn't enter into exclusive distribution agreements (at least in the markets I am aware of).
That makes possible different distributors for different market segments - grocery and drug stores, photo stores, labs, internet vendors, etc.
Theoretically it also encourages competition between distributors, which should permit retail outlets to shop around for the best price. That appears not to have happened in a constructive way. Much of that may be due to the myriad of disruptions to so much of the market.
The other approach - having a single authorized distributor in each market/country is what Harman did for Ilford products, and it nearly put them out of business when their US distributor (Ilford's largest market) suddenly went bankrupt. I wonder how much Harman lost due to product being supplied to the US distributor, but never being paid for?

 

[DREW WILEY]

Well, going back to when Cibachrome got renamed Ilfochrome and somewhat later got a new US distributor, that's what prematurely killed off all the whole product line, even before the digital revolution had sufficient momentum to do so. All it takes is one idiot on a forklift in a poorly supervised warehouse to spoil everything. There's nothing quite like ordering especially expensive photosensitive material and finding the cartons damaged. A well-run master distributorship can be a great asset, but a binding contract with a poorly run one can be outright business suicide.

 

[BrianShaw]

I'm completely befuddled by the griping about Gold 120 pricing (sour grapes aside). Looking at only one retailer, the preorder price for a 5-roll propack is:

• 17% less than Ektar (regular price, not the current special sale pricing)
• 22% less than Portra 160
• 33% less than Portra 400
• 42% less than Porta 800

Averaging 28.5% less.

And when using the pricing at Shop dot Kodak Moments, the savings is even more profound.

That satisfies me...

 

[Lachlan Young]

I'm completely befuddled by the griping about Gold 120 pricing

There's often a remarkable inverse correlation between the amount of money someone has sunk into camera gear they absolutely had to have (rather than needed) and the more they gripe ludicrously about film prices.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Oh, you've noticed that too, Lachlan? Or they'll won't even blink spending $2500 on yet another SLR lens, yet scream at the thought of spending fifty bucks for decent enlarger carrier glass, or even a decent shop level to adjust it.

 

[MattKing]

I wonder if the potential savings comes from their transitioning to in-house produced Estar base from the acetate that they have been buying from 3rd parties?

 

[braxus]

Cheapest price I saw on the 5 pak is from Cinestill's website. They had it listed for $40, but increased it to $42 as of now.
Kodak Professional Gold 200 Color Negative Film, 120 5 Pack Medium Format, ISO 200 – CineStill Film

B&H reduced their price $5 to $45 now. Freestyle totally removed their pricing, after some bitching to them by consumers (I was one of them). They never responded back, so that was their response.

 

[brbo]

I wonder if the potential savings comes from their transitioning to in-house produced Estar base from the acetate that they have been buying from 3rd parties?

Price of 135 Portra 800 and ColorPlus 200 didn't go down when they changed the base to Estar.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

Cheapest price I saw on the 5 pak is from Cinestill's website. They had it listed for $40, but increased it to $42 as of now.
Kodak Professional Gold 200 Color Negative Film, 120 5 Pack Medium Format, ISO 200 – CineStill Film

B&H reduced their price $5 to $45 now. Freestyle totally removed their pricing, after some bitching to them by consumers (I was one of them). They never responded back, so that was their response.

Good work, their price was higher than their Ektar price! I can't wait to shoot this film but I refuse to pay a premium over professional emulsions.

I really hope to see it in sheets but that's probably not likely.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

What is your problem, dude?