Kodak fixer shelf life / XTOL

[tkamiya]

I use Kodak Professional Fixer. The way I use and store it is that I have a bottle that was full when the solution was mixed, and as I use it and put it back, slowly becomes less full. At this moment, it is 90 to 95% full. The bottle is kept in room temperature.

According to the package instructions, the expected life of mixed solution is 2 months. I think this is very conservative.

How long does the fixer last in real-life experience?

I know I can do the film clip test where I submerge a short clip of film and see how long it takes to clear, then double the time. But I'd like to know, in general, what to expect.

Also, how does one test XTOL for expiration? Develop a clip of fully exposed film, fix it, and make sure it's all black?

At my usage, chemicals expire before it's fully used up....

 

[nickandre]

Fixer lasts until it starts to smell and stops clearing film. That's a fairly long time. Years. If it expires before you use it, you might want to try shooting more film.

Typically film developers will turn opaque black to indicate expiration. For best results use glass containers filled completely and stick to the manufacturers recommendations. You can eek out much more time than specified, but you risk sub optimal results. You're at much less of a risk with black and white than color though.

 

[PhotoJim]

XTOL, alas, does not change colour as it fails.

 

[tkamiya]

If it expires before you use it, you might want to try shooting more film.

I knew there was a simple solution to my problem!

 

[Mike Ong]

I use a Kodak Fixer to, I'm not sure whether it's the local version since it has a different name.

I first mixed it November 2009, maybe 15-20 rolls fixed. Last week I tried using the same bottle and it's almost the same. No cloudy part or what.

 

[Neal]

Dear tkamiya,

In the late '90s, a batch of Xtol mixed using distilled water lasted me for over 1 year in an accordion bottle (before it was my main developer, now it gets used up in less than 6 mos.). Avoid those as they are a PITA and really don't do a good job of keeping out oxygen. Now I use 250ml bottles (they fill closer to 275) and use it as I go. Used one-shot diluted 1+1 you will go through it without issue. If you still aren't using it fast enough, you need to shoot more. ;>)

Neal Wydra

 

[nickandre]

My solution has been to use Rodinal.

 

[kauffman v36]

ive been having the same problem and yesterday i decided to try the e-vac accordion bottles. neal, you have me worried. they seem to create a pretty good seal on my d-76 stock solution. well see how long it lasts, my last bottle of a gallon of d-76 lasted maybe 2 months before it changed to a brownish color, at which point i didnt want to risk it and a new packet's only 6 bucks. the gallon of kodak pro fixer i have is still working fine. i dont think its a time thing as much as a amount of film put through it thing.

 

[tkamiya]

Kauffman v36:

Here's my system for developer storage. I use a binary system (yes, I am an IT guy)

For 4 liter solutions, I mix and store it divided into
ONE 1/2 gallon bottle
ONE 1/4 gallon bottle
TWO 1/8 gallon bottles

I start using them from smaller ones. When both 1/8 gallon bottles are empty, I pour 1/4 gallon into them and process repeats. When all 3 smaller bottles are empty, I pour 1/2 gallon bottle into all three.

For Xtol which comes in 4 liter packet, I time my mixing for a day before development session. I keep what didn't fit in bottles in full measuring cup covered with Saran wrap. I use it the next day.

This way, the most I can waste due to short term spoilage is less than 1/8 gallon and I can minimize number of bottles. Doing this, I know XTOL lasts advertised 6 months with no color change or process degradations as far as I can see. I'm doing the same to DEKTOL as well. I see the smallest bottle do change color but larger ones are fine. At my current usage, smaller bottle get used up before it's degraded enough to cause problems.

I've seen my share of industrial accidents. I know folks use recycled soda bottles. I'm too afraid to do this, and I use store bought chemical storage bottles. Mine are all PLASTIC.

 

[martinhughesireland]

I have used Xtol stock up to 5 months old and it has worked fine

 

[PhotoJim]

My solution has been to use Rodinal.

In some ways that's a good solution, but to compare Rodinal and XTOL is sort of like comparing single-malt Scotch and a tawny port.

 

[fotch]

Kauffman v36:

........

For Xtol which comes in 4 liter packet, I time my mixing for a day before development session. I keep what didn't fit in bottles in full measuring cup covered with Saran wrap. I use it the next day.
.......

I have only found it in 5 liter packs, is your actually 4 liter?

 

[nickandre]

Accordion bottles don't keep out oxygen. They're worse than regular plastic bottles. Use glass if you need it to last long, but plastic is fine for a long time.

 

[CBG]

Plastic bottles labeled as #1 PETE plastic do seem to keep out oxygen quite well. I trust glass more, but the #1 plastic is pretty impressive. #1 PET/PETE plastic - Polyethylene Terephthalate - has very good gas permeability, so is excellent for developers. If I get it right, many plastics are fine for stop and fix.

Since #1 plastic bottles are ubiquitous, why not grab a few bottles and label them with wide white duct tape so as not to look like drinkables? Some seem quite heavily built with thicker walls, and some with more robust caps, and a few with "wide-ish" mouths, robust caps and heavy construction. Those, I use.

 

[Richard Jepsen]

I just developed 120 FP-4 with XTOL mixed Aug 09 and stored in 1L soda type container. The film appears to have developed normally. Photo Techniques tested developers for longevity in the July/Aug 2001 issue. The author, Michael Dosch, used glass bottles, distilled water, stored at 18.2 - 23.8*C. (64.7 - 74.8*F). Kodak D-76 useful life exceeded 6 months, its week to week variability was half that of any other developer tested. However using a plastic accordion container exhausted D-76 in 6 weeks. When the highlight density lost 2/3 f/stop (0.2 log D unit) compared to a standard test strip the testing was stopped. XTOL did not lose negative density after 27 weeks. XTOL exhaustion was 40 weeks.

If your film developing volume is low, mix 1L of D-76 or ID-11 with distilled water and store in a wine bottle to achieve a shelf life of 6/7 months. Kodak HC-110 has a long shelf life. Rodinal also has a long shelf live but IMO should not be considered a general purpose developer for small format.

 

[wclark5179]

I have a sneaking suspicion that the cap used for storage has a bearing on the life of the contents. I'm an advocate of using mt soda bottles, I use mainly the 2 liter type. I believe one of the reasons I find they work so well is that the cap seals real well over & over, again & again.

 

[tkamiya]

Fotch, you are correct. It's 5 liters. I have one more bottle in the mix that is 1/4 gallon (almost 1 liter) to make up the difference.

Today, I tested both fixer and developer using exposed film clip. Fixer is definitely working. Developer looks to be OK but I have no ways to measure if it's achieving maximum density. I went ahead and processed Tmax100. Result looks fine, but again, I have no ways to quantitatively measure the result.

I am not quite sure what to do from here. My storage method has proven itself to at least achieve advertised shelf-life of 6 months with no apparent ill effects. But, there's no telling when it will fail - meaning I will have to do clip tests every time. I might just mix a new batch and be ok for next 6 months. After all, it's only about 10 dollars a package.

 

[JohnArs]

I used undiluted XTOL after 14 months in a glass bottle filed to the top so now space for air. It was as it would been just fresh mixed!

XTOL forever, Armin

 

[fotch]

I used undiluted XTOL after 14 months in a glass bottle filed to the top so now space for air. It was as it would been just fresh mixed!

XTOL forever, Armin

That's good to hear. I plan to mix and store into 20 250ml amber glass bottles, filled to brim, Saran wrap plus screw top lid, and use either one shot or 1:1 .

 

[tkamiya]

Actually, my original post had two parts.... XTOL and Fixer. Does anyone know why Kodak rates its fixer to last only two months after mixing? Seems odd to rate it so short without having some reason behind it.

 

[fotch]

Actually, my original post had two parts.... XTOL and Fixer. Does anyone know why Kodak rates its fixer to last only two months after mixing? Seems odd to rate it so short without having some reason behind it.

I know this is not an answer to your question, rather, an explanation of why. That is, why question the manufacturers reasons? It is most likely because the risk of it giving poor performance is important.

Sure, maybe the use time can be extended with special precautions, but that goes beyond what would be considered "safe use".

I think different fixers have different use by dates however, I never bothered to check many others.

My general rule is read and follow the instructions, or at least, when it doesn't work right.

 

[tkamiya]

Yes, I guessed as much.

What I would really like to know is this. Kodak rated XTOL to last 6 months. Kodak rated Fixer to last 2 months. I don't expect usual developers to last that long because they absorb oxygen and "go bad." But... fixer doesn't usually do this, and people seems to be largely ignoring Kodak's recommended shelf live, as demonstrated by some posts on this thread. Yet, Kodak rated it for much shorter storage lifespan.

There got to be a reason. Either Kodak is overly conservative, they had different lawyers, or we are missing something. Yes, I can do a clip test but is that all we need to be concerned with?

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

My best guess to why Kodak rates the life span the way they do is that it's a worst case scenario. Users might store the chemistry unfavorably, or they might mix them with water that has a lot of contaminants and deposits in it, or perhaps strange pH. Those would all change how the developer work and arguably how long they would last.
If stored under ideal conditions and mixed with distilled water, it is highly likely that their chemistry lasts a lot longer than that.

I mixed my batch of replenished Xtol about a year ago (I think, give or take a few months), and I used tap water. I just keep replenishing it and it works over and over again without fault. Some stock solution that I have used for replenishment has sat for up to six months and works just as well as fresh chemistry for that purpose. I lost no activity in the developer at all.

As far as fixer is concerned, I test it before I use it the first time, measure how long it takes to clear a strip of film. When the fixer takes twice the amount of time as the first time I used it, I discard it and mix fresh. I do this for both prints and film, but use separate fixers for each process.
But I use Ilford Hypam, and the mixed stock solution that I purchase in 5l cans seems to last virtually forever.

I hope that helps.

- Thomas

 

[fotch]

An answer from a chemist is needed.