Kodak Files for Bankruptcy Protection 1/18/2012

clayne · Jan 25, 2012

The plan just looked like more of the same and pandering to the concept of "digital company" to me. I don't think that plan will last.

They need to jettison the profit losing consumer digital crap and focus on what they know and what works.

Photo Engineer · Jan 25, 2012

Well, their plan says (in part) that they will do to film what is needed to make digital profitable, and the plans for digital are more of the same. They are missing the boat here again and missing the point.

PE

hoffy · Jan 25, 2012

Putting film to the side for the minute, of late, what have Kodak done well?

Ken Nadvornick · Jan 25, 2012

hoffy said:
Putting film to the side for the minute, of late, what have Kodak done well?

Portra? Everyone seems to love it...

Ken

Sal Santamaura · Jan 25, 2012

My Azo is all from the same batch

Photo Engineer said:
...Batches of Azo emulsion could be controlled for contrast and speed by the use of Bromide and a dye. These also changed the tone slightly or perhaps allowed more manipulation of tone. In any event, this may be what you are seeing. A greater tolerance to tone manipulation...

Unlike Jim's color variability, my prints very consistently end up almost dead neutral after 4 minutes of toning in selenium 1+10. Also unlike Jim, I've so far been developing them in Neutol WA. I did try extra KBr in the Neutol WA, but found no difference (except needing more exposure) with anywhere from 30 ml to 210 ml of a 10% solution added to 1.6 liter of developer at 1:7 from concentrate.

Photo Engineer said:
...It is GWTW.

It will take one heck of a wind to blow away my 6,000 8x10 sheet Azo doomsday stash.

fotch · Jan 25, 2012

Sal Santamaura;... It will take one heck of a wind to blow away my 6 said:
Unbelievable. Well, I believe. Wow.

Photo Engineer · Jan 25, 2012

What I am saying is that Kodak did adjust Azo using several methods. Some combinations may have rendered batches more or less prone to tone changes. IDK! If you have one of those batches though and if you see tone variations depending on minor changes, this may be the source of it. OTOH, maybe I should just keep my mouth shut.

PE

zsas · Jan 25, 2012

Very interesting account of who the main creditors are....think this goes a long way towards making clear who has a stake in the processes:

"Iit took just three hours to decide who should make up the committee to represent creditors in its Chapter 11 bankruptcy process....,"
http://blogs.ft.com/fttechhub/2012/01/creditors-lawyers-seek-their-dues-in-kodak-bankruptcy/#axzz1kXAQcA2J

Sal Santamaura · Jan 25, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
What I am saying is that Kodak did adjust Azo using several methods. Some combinations may have rendered batches more or less prone to tone changes. IDK! If you have one of those batches though and if you see tone variations depending on minor changes, this may be the source of it...

Thanks; that finally got the message through my thick skull.

Photo Engineer said:
...OTOH, maybe I should just keep my mouth shut...

No, please don't, ever!

Photo Engineer · Jan 25, 2012

I have posted a list of all of Kodak's main creditors. The PDF file of this data is earlier in this thread.

PE

zsas · Jan 25, 2012

Ahh thanks PE, missed it

hoffy · Jan 26, 2012

Ken Nadvornick said:
Portra? Everyone seems to love it...

Ken

I could of sworn I said 'leaving film to the side for a moment'......

I did a tour of a local professional photo finishing business last year. They showed us all their machines, including the Kodak LED optical printer, the smaller wet process machines and the Epson Inkjets that they use.

The owner of the business LOVED his Kodak LED machine (Pegasus....does that ring any bells with anyone). Well built, state of the art when he bought it (mid 90's from memory) and not much better available today. He loved the fact that he could have a Service contract with Kodak to fix the thing when it breaks.

Contrast that with the Epson Inkjet. From memory, he had installed a few since he bought his first one (this century at least). The thing was about 18 months old and pretty much ready for the scrap pile. He had told us that Epson simply didn't care. If it broke you had to pay big dollars to get it fixed. Epson were only ever interested in selling new printers and that was it. From memory, he even said "now If Kodak could sell me one of these....."

Now, I am a total outsider looking in and maybe the quintessential Monday morning expert, but considering the luke warm crap that Kodak have served up at a consumer level over the last 10ish years, would they not be better of forgetting this all together? Would they not be better off servicing at a commercial and totally professional level? This would then (the way I am thinking) still leave plenty of room for film, considering that there still seems to be plenty of love for it on movie sets.

Or am I totally bonkers?

AlbertZeroK · Jan 26, 2012

hoffy said:
The owner of the business LOVED his Kodak LED machine (Pegasus....does that ring any bells with anyone). Well built, state of the art when he bought it (mid 90's from memory) and not much better available today. He loved the fact that he could have a Service contract with Kodak to fix the thing when it breaks.

Contrast that with the Epson Inkjet. From memory, he had installed a few since he bought his first one (this century at least). The thing was about 18 months old and pretty much ready for the scrap pile. He had told us that Epson simply didn't care. If it broke you had to pay big dollars to get it fixed. Epson were only ever interested in selling new printers and that was it. From memory, he even said "now If Kodak could sell me one of these....."

Epson offers service contracts too, but they are expensive. In fact, as of right now, if we were to invest in a large printer, I'd want one on a month to month lease - I've seen too many customers of mine with huge print setups (county governments) for both GIS (plotters) and normal printing - and I've seen almost every company have issues with getting both service out there and getting the service done right. I've even been party to an IBM technician without a clue (4 hours onsite and I fixed the issue in 5 minutes.)

The truth is, unless you have something like a month-to-month lease that you can easily tell someone to come get the machine cuz it's not working, there is little incentive for most of these companies to provide real service.

Heck, even technicians in school aren't being taught basic troubleshooting.

michaelbsc · Jan 26, 2012

hoffy said:
Or am I totally bonkers?

You aren't bonkers, but that is exactly the same reasoning the big iron guys used to retreat into the server room and abandon the desktop.

See how well that worked? Only a microscopic niche company can survive on "the big ones" single focus. And there are lots of those small businesses around. But that's not Kodak. Were is DEC?

For all of Perez's mistakes, thinking he could save Kodak with only us, the hobby market, wasn't one of them. Ignoring us was stupid too. I'm not defending that. So I do think his consumer idea was good but incompetently executed. As someone else note, any of us here could have run Kodak into the ground.

c6h6o3 · Jan 26, 2012

Sal Santamaura said:
Unlike Jim's color variability, my prints very consistently end up almost dead neutral after 4 minutes of toning in selenium 1+10.

I'm toning at 1:64, just enough to get the green out. Also, I've always found Neutol to be colder than amidol anyway. The amidol I'm using is Chinese, btw, which might also be contributing. I only have half a 100 sheet box of precious 1 minute grade 2 left in 8x10. I have a 50 sheet box of 20x24 Rochester grade 2, which when cut down will yield 300 sheets of 8x10. After that's gone, who knows?

I've seen prints by Azo printers who've switched to Ilford Multigrade Warmtone developed in amidol and the results are breathtaking. I have a lot more of grade 3 than I do grade 2. So when my Azo grade 2 is gone I'll probably sell the grade 3 and move on, along with the rest of the world. I've already done this with film. I sold the TMY I had in the freezer and bought HP5+ with the money. Now I'm developing by inspection again.

Aristophanes · Jan 26, 2012

A great deal of Kodak's current value stems from the Creo acquisition in 2005 referenced from their group here:

http://graphics.kodak.com/default.htm

That group accounts for a steady 40-50% of all revenue.

The consumer printer division is the most contentious because:

1. Perez has that background and it looks like he is simply turning Kodak into HP Jr., which is unimaginative.

2. The personal and home printer market is not really growing.

3. Revenues have been modest, gaining lately.

The Film and Entertainment Group is the revenue loss problem for Kodak. That is why most of it appears to be for sale. Private companies may be able to shrink and adapt to new realities, but public companies in deep debt cannot.

hoffy said:
I could of sworn I said 'leaving film to the side for a moment'......

I did a tour of a local professional photo finishing business last year. They showed us all their machines, including the Kodak LED optical printer, the smaller wet process machines and the Epson Inkjets that they use.

The owner of the business LOVED his Kodak LED machine (Pegasus....does that ring any bells with anyone). Well built, state of the art when he bought it (mid 90's from memory) and not much better available today. He loved the fact that he could have a Service contract with Kodak to fix the thing when it breaks.

Contrast that with the Epson Inkjet. From memory, he had installed a few since he bought his first one (this century at least). The thing was about 18 months old and pretty much ready for the scrap pile. He had told us that Epson simply didn't care. If it broke you had to pay big dollars to get it fixed. Epson were only ever interested in selling new printers and that was it. From memory, he even said "now If Kodak could sell me one of these....."

Now, I am a total outsider looking in and maybe the quintessential Monday morning expert, but considering the luke warm crap that Kodak have served up at a consumer level over the last 10ish years, would they not be better of forgetting this all together? Would they not be better off servicing at a commercial and totally professional level? This would then (the way I am thinking) still leave plenty of room for film, considering that there still seems to be plenty of love for it on movie sets.

Or am I totally bonkers?

Ken Nadvornick · Jan 26, 2012

hoffy said:
I could of sworn I said 'leaving film to the side for a moment'......

You most certainly did...

Ken

DREW WILEY · Jan 26, 2012

If they're going to survive they need to concentrate on what they do best, and not what everyone
and his pet hamster can also do. They need a define niche with a recognizable brand identification to it, even if its a smaller market than what they once enjoyed as an octopus corporation. Film and
color printing papers is one of these. Might be a shrinking market, but if they don't overload it with
a lot of redundant duplicate products, it's still pretty big. I've never seen one of their copiers. And
they past behavior with service contracts is the one thing which guarantees them no trust. But I've
never even seen a Kodak copier. Who would want to buy one on a service guarantee when there's
no guarantee they'll be around when you need them?

Steve Smith · Jan 26, 2012

DREW WILEY said:
If they're going to survive they need to concentrate on what they do best, and not what everyone and his pet hamster can also do.

The company I work for has a couple of phrases which describe this. If we can add some extra value to a product which other companies can't do, they say we have a 'right to win' the business and our sales people go out to get the business. If we get an enquiry for work which anyone else could do, they say we don't want to be a 'me too' company. There's no point trying to get work which everyone and his pet hamster can do as you will always be beaten down on price.

Steve.

DREW WILEY · Jan 26, 2012

Kodak is in no position to get into a bar fight right now with anyone. The long running price wars with
Fuji for everything didn't help either. When the salmon are running the bear needs to put on fat, because the winter will come sooner or later. They didn't. Instead, they thought the bar across the
street would be better, and they walked into an even big fight. And right now they're in the best
position in years because they finally have to make sink or swim decisions, and can't just bleed
successful department to pay for me-too ventures, or just wildly chop each category a certain percent and hope the books add up. Let's just hope it gets done right. Got nothin' to do with
"value added". It's about who you're going to be, and at last realizing you can be everything to
everyone.

cmacd123 · Jan 26, 2012

DREW WILEY said:
. I've never seen one of their copiers. And
they past behavior with service contracts is the one thing which guarantees them no trust. But I've
never even seen a Kodak copier.

Kodak used to make a darn good copier. High speed, and using Kodak technology. And the Lads from Kodak came in like clockwork to keep it running, heck back in the 1980's they had the place where we had one put in a phone line for the copier so It could report in on how it was feeling.

Kodak technology, - rather than a drum like most copier the photo-conductor was a loop of "film" sprocket driven. the techs replaced it regularly so their was never a bad copy from a worn drum. since it was film they could exposed a whole page at once with a flash, and crank the film over to the transfer section. Canon had to wait until they had digital copiers to do the same expose the whole page trick.

Kodak sold the business back in the 1990's.

Photo Engineer · Jan 26, 2012

Kodak build the best copier in the world, and got many awards for it. Then they subletted the engine to a competitor along with the patents. The competitor gave EK just what they asked for and then went on to make a better machine from the patents. As a result, the competitor made better copiers and Kodak made their own old standard while the industry moved on! Then they closed the copier division. (oh, the head of that division lives just a few doors down from me! )

Anyhow, another sign of EK strategy at work!

My office mate moved there and back again (he was short like a Hobbit - go figure that one) - long story including Yoda )

Anyhow, EK has a history of wrong decisions and I am working on an "expose" of these.

My comments here center on "What would you do if you were the CEO of EK"?

I would first establish a budget for film sales advertizing. Second, I would become a supporter of APUG and Photo Net for Analog. and finally, I would have a representative present on APUG and PN to interact with customers for Analog products and digital products.

How about all of you?

PE

tomalophicon · Jan 26, 2012

I'd shoot myself in the heart.

spoolman · Jan 27, 2012

PE: With that plan even I would invest in Kodak or whatever is going to be left.It is practical, makes sense business wise and probably none of the so-called experts that are now in charge would not recognize this as the best way to go even if it came up and bit them in the backside !!!!

Doug

hoffy · Jan 27, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
Kodak build the best copier in the world, and got many awards for it. Then they subletted the engine to a competitor along with the patents. The competitor gave EK just what they asked for and then went on to make a better machine from the patents. As a result, the competitor made better copiers and Kodak made their own old standard while the industry moved on! Then they closed the copier division. (oh, the head of that division lives just a few doors down from me! )

Anyhow, another sign of EK strategy at work!

My office mate moved there and back again (he was short like a Hobbit - go figure that one) - long story including Yoda )

Anyhow, EK has a history of wrong decisions and I am working on an "expose" of these.

My comments here center on "What would you do if you were the CEO of EK"?

I would first establish a budget for film sales advertizing. Second, I would become a supporter of APUG and Photo Net for Analog. and finally, I would have a representative present on APUG and PN to interact with customers for Analog products and digital products.

How about all of you?

PE

Bingo! This is the reason why I asked the question Scott if he had been in contact with anyone from Kodak.

What have we actually heard? Absolutely nothing.

OK, from a corporate point of view, we probably are nothing more then a bunch of Anoraks and Film nerds, but in this shrinking market, I'm afraid that from a Film point of view, we are all that Kodak have.

We have seen comments from Ilford here in the past. We have seen comments from other suppliers from Eastern Europe, but I have never seen an official comment from Kodak or Fuji. Maybe they don't get social media?

Kodak Files for Bankruptcy Protection 1/18/2012

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