Kodak Endura: sickly green/yellow whites

brbo · Jan 23, 2020

peoplemerge said:
Was it the reduction in time or fix? I'd say 99% it's the time, dev time alone is a good enough explanation.

Well, just do one print with shorter and one with longer times.

peoplemerge · Jan 23, 2020

koraks said:
I don't see how or why shortening bleach/fix times would resolve the problem and I suspect there may be an additional factor in your case that is left out of the equation, but it's an interesting finding.

True. Sorry if I wasn't clear. Reducing the time in DEV from 1m to 45 sec seems me to be my smoking gun... Further, I vaguely recall a manuals suggesting 45s at 95F (I've been processing at 100F). koraks, what do you think about that explanation for my case?

In your case, paper surely could be an explanation, but it's odd that it would fog in the same way as mine. If reducing dev time doesn't work for you as I think it might for me (I may need to test more rigorously) then you're probably right that the problem could rear up again.

Edit: forgot to metion, your suggestion about contamination is equally plausible. I just do a cursory rinse after fixing. Spray with hose, dump, spray, dump, invert till next process; prewet paper before it goes in the drum. I've equally seen this with a bone dry drum. Contamination of the source developer bath? Possibly. But today I have clean whites, and as I mentioned, I switched to fresh stop and fix baths only, it's the same batch of developer I used when I was having the problem.

koraks · Jan 23, 2020

Oh, it's about reduced time in the developer; that's a different story. That seems more plausible, although I have found so far that prolonged development tends to create only a minor color shift and no fogging issues with the papers I tried it on, but I'd have to recheck with endura how it responds when I reduce development. My current development is 1m30s at room temperature which seems good for all papers except the specific batch of endura my post was about, with shorter times leading to insufficient development (does not reach dmax and color shift ensues). I may have to try this again with my faulty endura.

pentaxuser · Jan 23, 2020

Bikerider said:
Can you say where or what you read or base your statement on? Have you ever actually used a DUKA?

.

Well GeorgK posted on Jan 6 and has had two of us asking for his source but as of 23 Jan has not responded. I do wish that people who give such warnings were at least prepared to say what their evidence is for such warnings

pentaxuser

peoplemerge · Jan 23, 2020

@koraks I've been led to believe the same time/temp conversion we use on film (for example https://www.digitaltruth.com/devchart.php?doc=timetemp) applies.

Photrio, please keep me honest here...

When I was doing room temp baths, I was checking the bath temperature every 3 prints or so and adjusting the time accordingly. Thus, I would think your times are a bit short: 45s at 37C if I assume (big assumption) your room is 25C, I get "modified development time = 2 minutes and 29 seconds." I think I also heard it mentioned that a change in temp can require a change in the color pack, but I don't think I ever experienced this... it was never really a problem. I can tell the difference between 50M/55Y and 51M/55Y, but there are people here that have a much keener I than me.

peoplemerge · Jan 23, 2020

Here's another possibility; can fixer pH introduce color shifts? https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/ra4-fixer-part-formula.125930/
Maybe it's my own fault for thinking I am free to use whatever fix I want, rather than the formulation created by the experts (some of whom contribute here on photrio).

koraks · Jan 23, 2020

Maybe I'll retest, but given that the papers I use reach dmax without a blue cast and contrast seems perfectly normal, I think that 1m30s is alright. I did 2m00 when I just started out but there didn't seem to be a benefit to the longer development time.

The temperature chart is a convenient approximation that works quite well in practice at least for b&w materials, but it isn't entirely accurate. In fact, each developer and film combination requires its own conversion formula. There's a thread on it on photrio.

koraks · Jan 23, 2020

peoplemerge said:
Here's another possibility; can fixer pH introduce color shifts?

Yes, but the primary problem would be too low pH resulting in the cyan dye remaining in leuco state. The image will shift to red and dmax will suffer. I'm not aware of fogging issues depending on fixer pH. Of course if you use Blix there shouldn't be a problem with this in the first place (assuming the Blix is in good condition).

ajschnettler3 · Jan 21, 2021

My partner is having a similar problem with yellow whites, however he is using Fuji paper. We are both trying to figure out what it can be. The paper is new, the chemicals are freshly mixed and he cleaned everything. He hasn't been using stop, but he checked after developing and the whites are white, including the border but after the blix all of the whites, including the border are yellow.

Hopefully someone helping you can help us.

koraks · Jan 21, 2021

That's unfortunate. Sadly, I have no updates/news on this problem and I remain with the hypothesis that the paper I used was expired or fogged. Since you indicate your paper is fresh, this couldn't be the cause. Provided, that is, that your paper hasn't spent a lot of time sitting on a shelf at a retailer or distributor (which I suspect may have been the case with my paper).

I can't offer any other advise than to try a different paper to exclude the possibility of a processing error in your own darkroom. I understand this is inconvenient due to the additional costs of acquiring more paper, but it's the only suggestion I can offer...

Tom Kershaw · Jan 21, 2021

ajschnettler3 said:
My partner is having a similar problem with yellow whites, however he is using Fuji paper. We are both trying to figure out what it can be.

What brand of chemicals is he using? When I started using the Tetenal developer I realised I was inadvertently using a double strength of solution which fogged the paper and gave yellow paper results.

Bikerider · Jan 21, 2021

Because of the initial cost I went over to Tetenal for my RA4 paper prints and that nearly always gave me poor colour and stained rebates with Kodak paper. It seems that the Tetenal kits have been re-formulated to make them odourless. Going by the figures that are provided with the kits the number of 10x8 prints that could be made from a 5 Lt kit are over estimated. I use a NOVA processor and the replenishment rate for both Kodak and Tetenal is 10cc per sheet or as I did every 10 sheets 100cc of developer and blix. I feel (I have no proof) that the dilution of the beach/fix is too weak to replenish at the rates I have used since I started RA4 printing. Oddly enough with the Tetenal kit and Fuji paper there was no problem.

When I got so fed up with poor results, I bought a Kodak Ektacolor kit and the problem went away. Kodak are on the face of it is more expensive, but you get 20Lt of developer and blix for approx twice the price of a Tetenal 5 ltr kit. I will never again out of choice use Tetenal for RA4 print developing.

There is no problem with the C41 film developer and bleach fix, it is just the RA4.

Oh yes I too use a DUKA which is about 10 feet away from the printing area set a 8 to reduce the light output and reflected off the ceiling. That had no affect on the printing with Tetenal or with Kodak on either paper.

Tom Kershaw · Jan 21, 2021

I did not have any problems with the Tetenal developer once I had used the correct dilution. The Tetenal 4x 1L concentrates dilute to approx. 80 litres of working solution. The stronger dilution is for replenishment.

pentaxuser · Jan 21, 2021

Bikerider said:
This appears to be a bit of an old wives tale. QUOTE]

Yes but is a perennial that will never go away.

pentaxuser

Bikerider · Jan 21, 2021

To me that points to someone who has never used one.

peoplemerge · Jan 21, 2021

The green sickly I had I concluded it was somehow I contaminated the dev with bleach or blix. If Print #1 was perfect, then print #2 was not, somehow when you processed, there was leftover residue on some surface the dev went into. it only takes a drop, if that. Clean everything, remix dev, use totally clean dry drum.

koraks · May 2, 2023

Blast from the past - a very kind fellow reached out to me just today to share his experience. He obtained the same paper from the same source, and experienced the same problem. It seems that both Nordfoto and Calumet in Germany have retailed the same paper, and possibly still do today...it's just even more expired now than it was back then! Since I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever to doubt this person's competence in terms of RA4 printing, this confirmation suffices at least for me to put my mind at ease. Indeed, I've never had this problem pop up with any other paper I've printed on since, and the fact that someone else totally unconnected to me arrives at the same conclusion, is pretty significant in my view.

If you consider buying Kodak Endura from Calumet in Germany or Nordfoto, please be ware, because it may still be the same batch of expired paper they're selling. Apparently it moves off the shelves really slowly.

PS: just for clarity, this is not to discredit either retailer. In fact, I applaud them for even offering cut sheet RA4 paper in the first place. It's a great help for anyone unwilling or not in a position to cut rolls at home! Especially Nordfoto is unique in that they also offer Fuji DPII in cut sheet, which I personally think is an excellent choice.

pentaxuser · May 2, 2023

pentaxuser said:
Well GeorgK posted on Jan 6 and has had two of us asking for his source but as of 23 Jan has not responded. I do wish that people who give such warnings were at least prepared to say what their evidence is for such warnings

pentaxuser

Well he was last seen in 2021 and never did reply I'll take it that he had no evidence to give us. What others conclude is up to them but I find it such a pity that we get a form of "throw-away" post that serves to do nothing other than possible put off newcomers to RA4 who either decide against it as total darkness is just too daunting or struggle unnecessarily in the dark.

If every printing session was a struggle for me then it becomes a chore rather than a joy and I don't need chores for a hobby

pentaxuser

koraks · May 2, 2023

While I agree it's a pity @GeorgeK didn't chime in on this any further, all I can say is that what he said back then still fits my experience very well (it just wasn't the cause for this particular problem). The notion that today's RA4 papers are much faster than those of yesteryear is quite well-understood in the industry and is recognized by everyone I've spoken to, including Fuji engineers. That safelighting for RA4 is a fickle issue as at least in my own experience substantiated by the very low tolerance of these papers to dim monochromatic light. There is some leeway, but it's very, very little.

On a brighter note (hah), it turns out that most people manage fairly well doing RA4 in total darkness. I don't want to discount the few who have significant and consistent issues with it, but the ones who worry about it without having tried it are far more plentiful than the ones who have tried it and found it to be totally manageable.

DREW WILEY · May 6, 2023

I had to cut down quite a few sheets from a big heavy 30-inch wide roll of Fujiflex a couple days ago in total darkness. But I do keep in my pocket a little Jobo Minilux - a dim amber device which can be momentarily switched on from a safe distance if I get disoriented or can't locate something. Any room safelight bright enough to do the job would probably fog color paper. I cut from an emulsion-in (EI) roll which comes out emulsion down on the cutting table. So that's another safeguard from hypothetical safelight fogging. But the rare instances I do need to turn on the Minilux, it's only a few seconds at a time.

Incidentally, Koraks, I did locate a US distributor which has quite a selection of the latest versions of Fuji rolls in stock, clear up to 50 inches wide. But the specific marketing names of these tend to differ from in Europe except for "Silk", and I won't be trying any of them until I get a number of Fujiflex prints done first, and by then I might be into an Autumn black-and-white print drymounting marathon anyway. One step at a time. It will be interesting to see how the replacement to "Super C" turns out.

Kodak Endura: sickly green/yellow whites

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Kodak Endura: sickly green/yellow whites

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