Kodak Endura might be back

koraks · Oct 20, 2023

BMbikerider said:
the slightly heavier base used by The Kodak paper was in my mind far better and not easy to kink.

Depends on which Fuji paper you're using. Try DPII. Comparing Crystal Archive etc to Endura isn't exactly fair; you should be comparing CA to something like Kodak Royal. The Fuji equivalent of Endura would be Maxima. DPII is on the same base and of comparable weight and sturdiness as Endura. A week ago another printer and me did a side by side comparison of Endura and DPII so it's easy to see.

koraks · Oct 20, 2023

pentaxuser said:
Thanks all but I am still none the wiser

Because nobody in this thread really knows.

It would be useful to know the following:
* Whether boxes of Endura sold around September 2022 were also labeled as originating from Kodak Alaris
* Whether there's any Endura around that has a manufacture date more recent than September 2022

If Alaris has now picked up distribution of Endura as @MattKing suspects, it would be interesting to know:
* why there's still paper being sold that's over a year old, but already labeled as an Alaris product
* why nobody in the industry apparently has said anything in public about Alaris taking over this part of SinoPromise's business

Lots of questions, very few answers. Let's wait and see.

BMbikerider · Oct 20, 2023

pentaxuser said:
Thanks all but I am still none the wiser as to whether its new freshly produced paper and who paid for the production to re-start appears to be anyone's guess Clearly someone/ entity did and has the not-inconsiderable amount of money to do this and it may be whoever has bought the licence to do so. An unknown third party?

Am I safe in suggesting that it was not Unique Photo who is the third party but may have been someone/ entity who wishes to remain anonymous and so far has only offered it to Unique Photo?

pentaxuser

I agree with what you say and knowing that the Chinese are masters of cloning goods, until I see it and try it I will remain sceptical. Forging a lable on a box and even artificially 'aging' it would be something they could do over a cup of tea. (Chinese tea of course).

koraks · Oct 20, 2023

BMbikerider said:
artificially 'aging' it

What would be the logic behind this?

BMbikerider · Oct 20, 2023

koraks said:
What would be the logic behind this?

I have come across this before with forgeries where something is artificially age to make it look as if it had been stuck on longer than it had been but the date altered. It is very difficult to explain but that seems to give the credence that something is genuine. Comes from too long in forensic lab I suppose

koraks · Oct 20, 2023

Alright, well, I think that's an area of conjecture where personally I see no reason of venturing in this context.

sillo · Oct 20, 2023

well this isn’t great. Fuji Type PDn base vs “Fresh” Kodak Endura processed in immediate succession

DREW WILEY · Oct 20, 2023

There are bigger fish in the pond than Unique. But none of them have the clout to outright restart an abeyant product line. The most they can do is private label some of it if they wished to do so.

Please keep in mind that Fuji offers a huge selection of RA4 paper products; so don't base your opinions on anecdotal evidence with just one of them, and probably not printed optimally anyway.

Many papers and films get sold long after their packaging dates. I've seen liquidators offer RA4 papers two decades old. I didn't take the bait.

In another line of business, I had to compete against Chinese fakery all the time. It was easy to spot. But the most remarkable example wasn't high tech at all. A simple Chinese farmer attached a fossil reptile tail to an early feathered bird body fossil using color rice paste glue. In a rush to acquire this remarkable specimen, none of the bidding parties even bothered to use a simple 5X magnifying loupe, which would have instantly detected that on the two pieces of sandstone involved, the orientation of the sand grains was completely dissimilar. A museum in Colorado paid a 100K for it, sight unseen; and even Natl Geo published a feature article on this allegedly remarkable discovery without even closely examining it. Too good to be true is typically just that - too good to be true.

MattKing · Oct 20, 2023

Unique may have bought it in bulk from some business that still had stock but decided to accelerate the switch to Fuji.

DREW WILEY · Oct 20, 2023

A sales person at Unique once erroneously told me that RA4 papers never go bad. What's that potentially tell you about their inventory itself?

An even bigger US distributor, Pakor, now lists only Fuji RA4 papers, in many types and sizes, plus a tiny selection of Mitsubishi paper.

brbo · Oct 20, 2023

sillo said:
well this isn’t great. Fuji Type PDn base vs “Fresh” Kodak Endura processed in immediate succession

In my experience, Endura will never be as white as Fuji paper. Endura is whiteish. Fuji paper is show white.

But, yeah, it's also a year old. Are you using acetic stop bath? It helped me to get a bit less tint when I was printing on Endura.

sillo · Oct 20, 2023

brbo said:
In my experience, Endura will never be as white as Fuji paper. Endura is whiteish. Fuji paper is show white.

But, yeah, it's also a year old. Are you using acetic stop bath? It helped me to get a bit less tint when I was printing on Endura.

Yup, using a stop. It’s much more obvious in person too iPhone doing some classic auto balancing nonsense

Pretty sure the Fuji paper is older (according to the label) too I gotta double check.

Just double checked, I purchased the Fuji roll in June of 2022 so it’s at an absolute minimum 3 months older if we’re going by the label.

brbo · Oct 20, 2023

Bummer. Thanks for providing information, though...

DREW WILEY · Oct 20, 2023

Fuji papers will distinctly yellow if they're outdated - which some example evidently are, even bought "new". It doesn't necessarily mean the print will turn out badly. The color might be beautiful. But it does inform you not to wait too long to print all of that paper, or at a certain point, it will be irremediably discolored. And it often does provide a hint whether that paper have been stored too long at a distribution hub, or under less than ideal conditions. My suspicion is that not many distributers cold store these color products like an actual manufacturer would cold-store its master rolls.

But if your paper is white to begin with, and your own storage conditions are friendly, that paper might still be good for another decade. There's no reason to go into a panic over RA4 papers a few months beyond the date posted on the box label.

pentaxuser · Oct 20, 2023

It seems the thread's title might as well be changed now to " Kodak Endura Might Not Be Back" Unfortunately the evidence for the comeback doesn't amount to a hill of beans as Rick said in Casablanca

pentaxuser

sillo · Oct 20, 2023

Back home from the darkroom and here are a few more shots of the Endura and Fuji Pdn. Maybe I'm overreacting a little, but I'm a little disappointed it’s more short dated than "fresh" and the yellowish base doesn't help that cause. I also sell the occasional print and I wouldn't feel comfortable selling someone a print that is very obviously yellow even if the print itself looks good. I should’ve learned my lesson after the bad batch of Flexicolor I got lol.

Endura

Endura on Top, Fuji on Bottom

Endura on Top, Fuji at same settings middle, Fuji with adjusted settings on Bottom (ignore the creased corner I trim the prints down to 5x7 when they're done drying)

DREW WILEY · Oct 20, 2023

The Fuji example seems a little more contrasty, which might or might not be an improvement over the Kodak version, depending on what look one is seeking, and what specific CN films they prefer to shoot. And the amount of yellowing of the Endura is rather
conspicuous on the borders.

sillo · Oct 20, 2023

I always have trouble, especially with quick phone shots (I find iphones really dial up contrast when I take shots of prints), getting a good online representation of my prints. In person I much prefer the colors and contrast of the Fuji Paper. The colors are much punchier.

I spoke with Unique and sent them a bunch of the same pictures and they're going to talk to their Kodak rep.

mshchem · Oct 20, 2023

Kodak Rep???

DREW WILEY · Oct 21, 2023

Alaris would use Reps in relation to serious distributors, not typically for end-users, which would be more a Customer Service office contact thing. I don't know what would be involved these days to even give a Rep commission incentive. Overall film sales themselves would seem to be less than substantial; but who knows? - maybe they only have a single Rep for the whole country.
As a professional Buyer, I knew Mfg Sales Reps with six-figure incomes back in the 70's, with that collapsing to near minimum wage
in the 90's; and with that dramatic downward shift, there went down the drain competency too. Now lots of them are basically just entry-level gofers looking for something to put on their resume before applying to a McDonalds.

BMbikerider · Oct 23, 2023

brbo said:
In my experience, Endura will never be as white as Fuji paper. Endura is whiteish. Fuji paper is show white.

But, yeah, it's also a year old. Are you using acetic stop bath? It helped me to get a bit less tint when I was printing on Endura.

You only had to compare the rear of a sheet of Endura which is pure white, with the processed but unexposed emulsion side and the difference is obvious.

brbo · Oct 24, 2023

BMbikerider said:
You only had to compare the rear of a sheet of Endura which is pure white, with the processed but unexposed emulsion side and the difference is obvious.

Have you ever processed fresh Endura and got perfect whites like those you get from Fuji? What I was trying to say is that I saw about same difference in whites as OP showed when I was comparing my fresh Endura to fresh Fuji Maxima. But then OP said that difference is much more pronounced than what can be seen in his photos, so I don't know... Are we looking at Endura as good as it gets or already going off slightly?

Another observation. Maxima and FujiFlex will also loose their whites with time (at room temperatures). But they go in opposite direction, towards pink, while Endura goes yellow/green. The pedestrian Fuji CAII keeps the best, in my experience.

From now on I will try to keep my paper frozen. RA-4 paper in rolls is cheap compared to BW paper but still seems like a terrible waste to see it go bad.

mshchem · Oct 24, 2023

I suspect that this is some product that is a remainder.???

Maybe somehow tied up in SinoPromise bankruptcy???

Could be that the labeling was from 09/22 ?????

Sad. It would be great to have these papers back. This looks more like a clearance sale????

MattKing · Oct 24, 2023

mshchem said:
Could be that the labeling was from 09/22 ?????

September 2022 is two years after Kodak Alaris sold the business to Sino Promise.

BMbikerider · Oct 24, 2023

Basically Sino Promise and Kodak seem to be in a bit of mess, possibly with Kodak being lead down a bamboo garden path.

Kodak Endura might be back

koraks

Moderator

koraks

Moderator

BMbikerider

koraks

Moderator

BMbikerider

koraks

Moderator

sillo

DREW WILEY

MattKing

Moderator

DREW WILEY

brbo

sillo

brbo

DREW WILEY

pentaxuser

sillo

DREW WILEY

sillo

mshchem

DREW WILEY

BMbikerider

brbo

mshchem

MattKing

Moderator

BMbikerider

Kodak Endura might be back

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency