Kodak Endura might be back

koraks

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This is very interesting indeed!
It's all E-surface, which might mean that all this paper is from a single production run. This raises a number of questions:
* Will more surfaces appear on the market within the next few weeks, implying fully restarted production?
* Will other vendors also show new stock soon?
* What is the actual date on these boxes and does it demonstrate production that has occurred after the hiatus that started several months ago?
* Where is the paper actually manufactured?

It's hard not to have a soft spot for Endura. I guess everyone who has printed on it will recognize this.
 
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Samu

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What matters, how the paper is like. Endura is after all just a trademark. Who makes it and will the quality be up to old Kodak standards. I have heard that Chinese made papers had some issues. I have never used these Sino Promise papers though, as they were almost impossible to get in Europe - at least when compared to Fuji. Of course, if Kodak papers will be available again, this is great news. Fuji DPII is fine with me, but I don´t like relying on monopolies.
 

koraks

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Samu said:
I have heard that Chinese made papers had some issues.
Click to expand...

I don't think any of the Endura (or Royal etc.) paper was ever made in China. AFAIK it was/is all made in Windsor, CO. Since this hasn't been a Kodak entity since 2016, I don't know if it's still fair to speak of 'Kodak standards'. Like you said, 'Endura' is just a trademark. And 'Kodak' is just a brand, used by a number of (by now barely/unrelated) entities...
 

sillo

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I ordered two rolls yesterday so I'll report back when it arrives. I'm really close to Unique so it should be here today according to the tracking.
 
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brbo

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@sillo, our man on the ground!

(btw, you ordered a fresh roll of Endura and didn't tell us?! isn't that a reason for an automatic ban here on Photrio?)
 

pentaxuser

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If it is back in production and the phrase "fresh-dated" would suggest it is, then isn't it a little surprising that Kodak hasn't announced it to the RA4 world?

I know nothing about Unique Photo in terms of its size, reputation etc Is it the sort of company that can be relied on to say what it means and mean what it says? Any idea why Kodak appears to have chosen Unique Photo to be the first to receive fresh Endura

Presumably we can shortly expect to find Endura on general sale

pentaxuser
 

sillo

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Unique is a pretty popular supplier of paper and chemistry to businesses around the Northeast. They have two pretty large stores in NJ relatively close to NYC and one in Philly.

Now the question is why did it take over a year from the manufacture to sale.
 

koraks

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sillo said:
Now the question is why did it take over a year from the manufacture to sale.
Click to expand...

Yeah. Not sure if you were unfortunate and they sold some remaining old stock to you, but I find it hard to consider this 'fresh dated'. It'll still print fine, I'm sure, so that's OK. But it's not really a sign of production having started back up.

pentaxuser said:
isn't it a little surprising that Kodak hasn't announced it to the RA4 world?
Click to expand...

What's Kodak's involvement in this paper, anyway? Kodak's name on the label is only there due to licensing reasons. It's a bit like the Ilford color film being sold now.
 

MattKing

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The really remarkable things about that label are the two parts that are highlighted below in red:


That tells me that Kodak Alaris has got some or all of the colour paper business back from Sino Promise. What does this mean about the photo chemical business?
 

koraks

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MattKing said:
That tells me that Kodak Alaris has got some or all of the colour paper business back from Sino Promise.
Click to expand...

I wondered about this, but I wouldn't jump to conclusions. There is a possibility that Alaris only plays a part in the logistics of distribution or order fulfillment for lack of facilities of SinoPromise in the US where the paper is or was made.
 

pentaxuser

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I'd have thought from Kodak's position as the licensee it makes sense to claim that Endura is theirs Isn't the analogy the same as that of Ilford chemicals Someone else makes them but Ilford holds the licence and puts its name on the product?

The info on the paper's container says Kodak Alaris but there appears to be a reference to Kodak and Rochester. So is it KA who have commissioned the resumption of this paper knows as Kodak Endura thus we should refer to it as Kodak Alaris Endura if Eastman Kodak of Rochester has no involvement at all with this paper?

What is clear if that someone has signed off on the costs of restarting production, assuming of course that production has in fact restarted and that we are being told the whole truth


pentaxuser
 

koraks

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pentaxuser said:
I'd have thought from Kodak's position as the licensee it makes sense to claim that Endura is theirs Isn't the analogy the same as that of Ilford chemicals Someone else makes them but Ilford holds the licence and puts its name on the product?
Click to expand...
It works the other way around. If someone licenses the Kodak brand name, it's that 3rd party (the licensee) who decide what product they put it on (within the terms of the licensing agreement) and how that product performs. So if Kodak licensed the name (in this case, 'Kodak Professional') to a licensee, it's that licensee who are responsible for the product as such.

This is different from outsourcing manufacturing and then selling under one's own brand, as Ilford apparently does with their chemistry (assuming they do; I never looked into it). The example of Ilford color film was really more appropriate here than that of Ilford B&W chemistry: a product marketed by a 3rd party with a brand name pasted onto it based on a license agreement with the company holding the rights to that name.

pentaxuser said:
So is it KA who have commissioned the resumption of this paper knows as Kodak Endura thus we should refer to it as Kodak Alaris Endura if Eastman Kodak of Rochester has no involvement at all with this paper?
Click to expand...

That's unclear at this point. In the case of Endura paper, it has been SinoPromise over the past 7 years who decided what product would be sold as Kodak Endura. Not Kodak. Maybe this has changed; see Matt's post above. SinoPromise has never been very outspoken on what's happening on their front, especially not in the past couple of years.

AFAIK this particular product is known as 'Kodak Professional Endura Premier'. At least that's what's on the label. We didn't call it 'Carestream Kodak Endura' or 'SinoPromise Kodak Endura' in the period of 2016-2022 either. The product name as such seems to not have changed. The product has likely undergone many changes over the year, despite being called the same. Even if it has always been manufactured by the same entity. Incremental, but subtle changes to color paper are rather common.

pentaxuser said:
What is clear if that someone has signed off on the costs of restarting production, assuming of course that production has in fact restarted and that we are being told the whole truth
Click to expand...

Well, apparently back in September 2022 someone had signed off on production costs. I'm not entirely sure what the relevance is of knowing if production costs were signed off on, and by whom. It seems to me this is mostly relevant to the controllers and accountants of the company or companies involved. If product leaves the factory, as an end user I always assume that someone has paid for the materials. If they haven't, they managed to get a very sweet deal indeed. I'd still be none the wiser from my perspective.
 

DREW WILEY

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Right on the label being posted, it states that it was coated or "sensitized" in the USA, and packaged here as well, and not made in China. It also indicates that Kodak Alaris is the party which licensed its manufacture. Perhaps Sino Promise gets a royalty. Dunno.

But does the "mfg date" indicate the date of coating, or just of cutting and packaging?
 

Ernst-Jan

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The mention of Rochester is also weird, isn't paper coated at Carestream?
 

DREW WILEY

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Rochester would represent just the business office location of Alaris, not Rochester manufacture. But that could be verified by the exact address involved, which has changed since the box was labeled. They now seem to have two headquarters, one at a different address in Rochester; and the other and more recent one in the UK. Alaris is just a marketing entity anyway.

Carestream itself is still office based in Rochester, though now independent of Kodak. They list three coating plants, one in Oregon, one in Colorado, and one in Rochester, though photographic color paper seems to be just a minor aspect of it. They seem have top notch coating ability.

Another relevant question is, who is making the relevant dyes, and to what degree has that evolved?
 
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Ben 4

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If it was manufactured a year ago (and expires five months from now), does that mean it's in active production? Honest question.
 

BMbikerider

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The term Fresh Dated shows 9/22, well if it is correct that means it is already 13 months old. It took me a while to get used to Fuji paper and it is OK-ish but the slightly heavier base used by The Kodak paper was in my mind far better and not easy to kink.

I hope it is true, but I won't be holding my breath.
 

MattKing

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Kodak Alaris' main business address has always been in Rochester, although they did move at one time to new premises.
And it is more likely that the eights have reverted to Kodak Alaris due to a Sino Promise default - potentially with product being released as well.
 

pentaxuser

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Thanks all but I am still none the wiser as to whether its new freshly produced paper and who paid for the production to re-start appears to be anyone's guess Clearly someone/ entity did and has the not-inconsiderable amount of money to do this and it may be whoever has bought the licence to do so. An unknown third party?

Am I safe in suggesting that it was not Unique Photo who is the third party but may have been someone/ entity who wishes to remain anonymous and so far has only offered it to Unique Photo?

pentaxuser
 
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