KODAK: DID YOU MAKE THE WRONG MOVE A DOZEN YEARS AGO?

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michaelbsc

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I think the place where Kodak dropped the ball was letting go of the OLED research.

Kodak's biggest "strength" in my mind, perhaps wrong, is being able to produce miles of thin film deposits. And I think that within 15 years, which could have been sooner with good research, active animated walls will be the norm.

Maybe I misunderstand how strong they were in it. Perhaps they were really just a bit player. But frankly I've been waiting on that for over a decade myself. I want my entire family room wall to be the entertainment screen and the teleconferencing center.
 

steven_e007

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Didn't Kodak make lots and lots of money from x-ray film? When that went digital I think it had a big impact on their bottom line.

There are lots of industrial, medical and other 'none pictorial' applications that used to use film. I think, as photographers, we sometimes over estimated our importance to film manufacturers. I put a roll of film in my camera last week, I still haven't finished it, yet.

Speed cameras, security cameras, production line sampling cameras, medical cameras in hospitals all used to eat up pallet loads of film.

I reckon the hospitals in any city probably got through more Tri-x in a week than all the amateur and professional photographers in that city combined would use in a month.

All digital now, of course...

Very soon the only people buying film probably will be us photography 'enthusiasts' - but the market will be really tiny compared with what it once was. I think it would have been good if the big film manufacturers had promoted and supported analogue more, but it probably would only have meant the difference between tiny and fairly tiny - their market would still have shrunk dramatically, I don't think anything could have stopped it, not to the extend that it would have kept the huge coating machines like those of Agfa and Kodak viable.

There is a good reason why Ilford is still with us, there coating machine was always (relatively) small and designed to cope with lots of different films and papers. It was being a 'niche' company that saved them... for the time being.
 
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Aristophanes

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There a 3 problems with splitting off the Kodak film biz:

1. The demand problem. Where is the bottom for film demand? It might be 100% extinction, and even the merest possibility may deter any interest. This could realistically only be done through bankruptcy.

2. Motion picture industry. Despite decline this sector drives revenues. Giving up this cash flow is problematic for share value.

3. Almost certainly no one would put capital into the film entity without the Kodak name. That's baked in.
 

zsas

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Where is this alleged revenue of motion pic?

Here is some info that I posted a while ago re the film division

The situation with the film division looks pretty grave...

Originally Posted by zsas
I think I have an answer to the above questions related to earnings of the Film Division. I found it in the quarterly report. I believe I calculate a 94% decline in earnings ($2 million 2Q11 earnings vs $36 million 2Q10 earnings). I sure hope they can continue to make profits in our Film Division!!!

"Film, Photofinishing and Entertainment Group second-quarter sales were $396 million, a 14% decline from the year-ago quarter, driven by continuing industry-related volume declines. Second-quarter earnings from operations for the segment were $2 million, compared with earnings of $36 million in the year-ago period. This decrease in earnings was primarily driven by significantly increased raw material costs, particularly silver, and industry-related declines in volumes, partially offset by cost reductions and price actions across the segment."

per Kodak's 2nd Quarter 2011 Results
http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.File?item=UGFyZW50SUQ9MTAwOTk5fENoaWxkSUQ9LTF8VHlwZT0z&t=1
 
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Rudeofus

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What could they have done to remain as relevant as they were? They certainly could not have stayed the same size and there is no arguing there but, in this digital world, what's going to make them different and relevant?
What did Fuji do? A lot of discussions here focus on grain size, sharpness, sensitivity, chemical reactions and coating procedures, but what most films are really about are their wonderful palettes of colors and/or tones. Fuji built cameras which were built like Nikons but instead of accurate colors Fuji focused on beautiful colors, which is what they were and are still very good at.

Fuji just released a digital camera which supposedly lets you emulate the characteristics of many film emulsions out of the box. I wonder how many people will try this and ask themselves at some point: "why not try the real thing?" Kodak on the other side just wanted everyone to forget as fast as possible that they had anything to do with film, ever.
 

MaximusM3

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I should emphasize that I don't think that Kodak can reinvent themselves in the photography business. It's my belief that they have to break new ground and get into other technologies if they wish to survive. That's what I meant by reinventing themselves; sorry if I was unclear.

As Max states above, most everything in photography has been reinvented enough times that nobody cares how many megapixels the sensors are anymore. What else is there? Pictures with scent? Pictures with an attached donut? Nobody needs a camera to do anything else than what's already on them.

If you think about what something like an iPhone has done for photography. Every dumbass that owns one, and that knows nothing about photography, can download applications to their device and just play with the pictures until they have something they like. It's intuitive, easy to do, and you can make an 8x10 print that looks pretty good if you really wanted to. 99% of photographers are probably no more discerning than that.

So what has really changed? Pictures are stored on Flickr, on memory sticks, on hard drives, or Facebook. Fewer prints are being made, and people are NOT stuffing shoeboxes full of them to store in the attic. Making it easy for folks mean they can take decent pictures, that they are happy with, with a device that is also their phone, and they pay nothing for every picture they take other than the power to charge their devices. It's bloody brilliant, if you're selling iPhones. But if you rely on selling point and shoot digital cameras, look out... How do you compete with that? You don't.

So you look elsewhere, check out micro and macro trends in the economy, figure out what future problems are going to be, and start producing solutions to those problems. In my opinion that's what Kodak needs to do.

You may be onto something here, T..if they can figure out a camera that makes a good espresso and spit out a picture with a donut attached.. :smile:

Hey, there is an obvious tendency here, since it is APUG, to think with the heart, with nostalgia, when it comes to film and process. But, objectively, it's not how it is and will be. Kodak, in some strange way, will have to find a digital niche or stay in a film niche. Maybe they can still marry both and make everyone happy. The question is, once again, what are they going to produce that is innovative, unique, to make them relevant and successful? Forget film. That's right, nobody prints anymore and the few that do use inkjet (I'm talking at the mass level here, not us on APUG necessarily). Digital is cheap and it's easy. If you have money to blow, you buy a Leica M9 or even a Fuji X100 and be happy for the rest of your life. The quality is staggering and potential limitless.
Take me, as a consumer, for example: I own an M9, I used it, I can take incredible pictures with it, and it's just gathering dust. Why? Forget about the argument of "film is better..blah blah.." It may be, it may be not. IT'S THE PROCESS. This is something that most will agree with here. We do it because WE LOVE IT. We love shooting film, we love our film camera, we love developing it, we love making mistakes and silly tests (ok maybe not that) and we still love to print in a darkroom. It's the same for those 30 people in the US who still do wet plate :smile: They do it because they love it, and not because it's better than digital. Yet, there isn't enough of us to keep big companies in business. So, where will Kodak fit in the future? I say nowhere, sorry (again, except a niche film market like Ilford). Steve Jobs may be dead but I would be willing to bet that Apple will come out with something staggering in the imaging department and marry everything that has to do with pictures in a seamless way, just like they did with music. Game over! That will cover 99% of the market, aside from those who are still attached to carrying a big camera and a bunch of lenses for a variety of reasons. That will be the overwhelming minority. Let's be honest, I know many here look around and see pictures taken with an iPhone and processed with Hypstamatic or other apps with some jealousy. If I were to post analog versions of some of those lovely pictures, everyone here would be oohhh...aaaahh...wow..but since, they are digital, they are crap? Well, they are not and that's the reality. If I can make an image look like the best Polaroid I can dream of with the iPhone in my pocket, why the heck would I want to spend $25 on 10 Impossible Project sheets? That's how most people think and those are the people who keep big, successful, innovative companies like Apple in business and thriving. It's a new world out there and unless Kodak pulls out a miracle, they are done in what is their current incarnation.
 

zsas

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^Looks like re reading the 2Q11 rpt film makes the least, the graphic and comm div is makin about $700mil (almost 2x film)
 

MaximusM3

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What did Fuji do? A lot of discussions here focus on grain size, sharpness, sensitivity, chemical reactions and coating procedures, but what most films are really about are their wonderful palettes of colors and/or tones. Fuji built cameras which were built like Nikons but instead of accurate colors Fuji focused on beautiful colors, which is what they were and are still very good at.

Fuji just released a digital camera which supposedly lets you emulate the characteristics of many film emulsions out of the box. I wonder how many people will try this and ask themselves at some point: "why not try the real thing?" Kodak on the other side just wanted everyone to forget as fast as possible that they had anything to do with film, ever.

1) How many people will want to try "the real thing"? Enough to make it worth their while and keep a company in business? Doubt it.
2) What's the point of wanting to try the real thing when you can't buy film AND there are no labs to process it?

Kodak's problem was not that they wanted everyone to forget that they had anything to do with film but the fact that they had nothing to fall back on with film going dead (by Kodak's high standards, of course).
 
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MaximusM3

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The situation with the film division looks pretty grave...

Originally Posted by zsas
I think I have an answer to the above questions related to earnings of the Film Division. I found it in the quarterly report. I believe I calculate a 94% decline in earnings ($2 million 2Q11 earnings vs $36 million 2Q10 earnings). I sure hope they can continue to make profits in our Film Division!!!

"Film, Photofinishing and Entertainment Group second-quarter sales were $396 million, a 14% decline from the year-ago quarter, driven by continuing industry-related volume declines. Second-quarter earnings from operations for the segment were $2 million, compared with earnings of $36 million in the year-ago period. This decrease in earnings was primarily driven by significantly increased raw material costs, particularly silver, and industry-related declines in volumes, partially offset by cost reductions and price actions across the segment."

per Kodak's 2nd Quarter 2011 Results
http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.File?item=UGFyZW50SUQ9MTAwOTk5fENoaWxkSUQ9LTF8VHlwZT0z&t=1

$2 mil in earnings? There you go..here is the answer. This is Kodak..2 mil??? I had the same earnings in my company before the crash of 2008 and I did it with 5 employees. They can't continue the way they are now.
 

zsas

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Max I sadly agree...they need to divest film from the larger whole, then folks like us wd be all over it, put Eastman's photo on the box of TMY and we wd be all in support! I think they want their cake and eat it too (dig and film) and you can't (aka IBM divest PC to Lenovo)
 

Rudeofus

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1) How many people will want to try "the real thing"? Enough to make it worth their wile and keep a company in business? Doubt it.
Well you never know. It's one way where digital may help instead of cannibalize analog.

2) What's the point of wanting to try the real thing when you can't buy film AND there are no labs to process it?
Getting film and processing is really not hard if you know how to navigate the internet.


BTW: As PE already posted, forget the 2M number for earnings. Money was shifted from their profitable film business to their loss making digital business to save taxes.
 

zsas

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So the SEC allows a house of cards still? I thought SOX took care of the shell game in a post Enron world.
 

segedi

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...big, successful, innovative companies like Apple...

Apple is successful because of marketing. The innovation is spurred only to get people to lust after a device, repeatedly. And marketing (and branding) is the big persuader. The iPad 2 is freakin' magical. Think of it as a Harry Potter you can own. Until the iPad 3 comes out. And then the iPad 2 ain't so magical anymore.

In short, Kodak needs better Kool-Aid. Another Harry Potter reference, the newspapers or photos. They move. I want my prints to do that! And not on an iPad.
 

removed account4

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Getting film and processing is really not hard if you know how to navigate the internet.

it is a pain in the neck and expensive, and in a raging world wide depression/ recession
i don't think people have the $$$ to keep buying film at $5 / pop
and having 36exposures processed + printed + burned to a cd for 9-10$ / pop + SHIPPING ...

drug stores don't do send out much anymore, and it isn't cheap
mini-labs / mom+pops are nearly out of business ..
qualex / kodak labs is gone
fujilabs is small, and doesn't service most drug stores &C ..
and sending out to someplace far away seems to be a waste of time
especially when you can do everything with your phone
and it's "good enough"
 

MaximusM3

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Apple is successful because of marketing. The innovation is spurred only to get people to lust after a device, repeatedly. And marketing (and branding) is the big persuader. The iPad 2 is freakin' magical. Think of it as a Harry Potter you can own. Until the iPad 3 comes out. And then the iPad 2 ain't so magical anymore.

In short, Kodak needs better Kool-Aid. Another Harry Potter reference, the newspapers or photos. They move. I want my prints to do that! And not on an iPad.

Marketing is a part of being business savvy and selling things that people want (or think they want). But you got to deliver to stay in the game and Apple did/does. Why didn't Microsoft do it? Apple created a perfect ecosystem that works, with simplicity and innovation. Yes, they marketed everything well but if the products were not worth the hype, they'd be dead in the water. The iPod was innovative, and so was the iPhone and iPad. The fact that they can market great and innovative product, assures them sales in the billions. I know that Apple changed my 20 year old business when they introduced the iPhone and I've increased productivity and sales, drastically. That's not a byproduct of marketing. Film is old technology with nothing new to say and digital left Kodak in the dust. What can they really do?

I want my prints to sell also but the only chance of that is by doing something creative and that people enjoy. Most don't give a crap anymore if it's inkjet, silver gelatin, platinum, etc. Again, photographers do it because they love it and not because it is a great selling point anymore. Unless you speak to old timers, saying carbon pigment or silver gelatin is like talking Aramaic to most people. If you leave the small APUG universe aside, this is how the world out there is now. Maybe sad, but true.
 

CGW

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SNIP


it is a pain in the neck and expensive, and in a raging world wide depression/ recession
i don't think people have the $$$ to keep buying film at $5 / pop
and having 36exposures processed + printed + burned to a cd for 9-10$ / pop + SHIPPING ...

drug stores don't do send out much anymore, and it isn't cheap
mini-labs / mom+pops are nearly out of business ..
qualex / kodak labs is gone
fujilabs is small, and doesn't service most drug stores &C ..
and sending out to someplace far away seems to be a waste of time
especially when you can do everything with your phone
and it's "good enough"

Amen. It takes a certain perverse determination to keep shooting film now, not to mention a belief that it's not just different but better. I keep asking, "for who, me?" The analog community in my area shrunk steadily as "hangout" labs and stores thinned services, stock and personnel; once-friendly camera clubs fissured along analog-digital lines and marginalized film shooters by killing slide presentations/competitions. OK quality mini-lab service from places like Costco--decent quality hereabouts--died and pro labs either killed film services, priced them into oblivion, or gave up on quality as volume tanked. Home processing/printing isn't an option for many. I'm just starting on b&w developing but now need a good quality flatbed, after-market neg holders, and some software upgrades. An enlarger and the dedicated space for a darkroom? Not now. I borrow friends hi-end DSLRs and tweaked m4/3s rigs and turn out work I like. But getting a project or idea through analog or hybrid workflow now hits a new choke point: buying film and getting quality processing. Longer drives, longer waits and higher costs for lab work are now part my film life, along with unwelcome surprises from shops that suddenly show they've quit caring. It sucks.
Not sure I'm willing to turn photography into a survivalist strategy.
 

wblynch

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Kodak should go into making color-wrap film for Automobiles. It will replace sprayed paint as we know it. The market will be huge and there will be tremendous opportunity for color changes and refreshes over the life of the cars.

As we move towards smaller electric and alternate fuel cars, they will become more like Smart cars with easily swapped panels.

Film wrapping cars will cut down on pollution and drastically reduce auto collision repair costs.

There are definitely future markets for Kodak. They just need to get more imaginative.
 

CGW

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Kodak should go into making color-wrap film for Automobiles. It will replace sprayed paint as we know it. The market will be huge and there will be tremendous opportunity for color changes and refreshes over the life of the cars.

As we move towards smaller electric and alternate fuel cars, they will become more like Smart cars with easily swapped panels.

Film wrapping cars will cut down on pollution and drastically reduce auto collision repair costs.

There are definitely future markets for Kodak. They just need to get more imaginative.

GM's Saturn cars had plastic panels. Saturn's dead.
 

michaelbsc

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Not sure I'm willing to turn photography into a survivalist strategy.

I hadn't quite thought about in those terms, but that's the position that I came to several years ago.

I didn't use the survivalist term to describe it. I didn't have a term to describe it.

But "survivalistist mode" is an excellent description of where I expect to be in several more years when I start coating my own glass plates.

I just hope it is later rather than sooner.
 

MaximusM3

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I hadn't quite thought about in those terms, but that's the position that I came to several years ago.

I didn't use the survivalist term to describe it. I didn't have a term to describe it.

But "survivalistist mode" is an excellent description of where I expect to be in several more years when I start coating my own glass plates.

I just hope it is later rather than sooner.


I think of myself as already there in some ways. I have a lot of film to shoot but once I'm done then the best inkjet printers will be able to give killer digital negatives (they're already there if you know what you're doing) so we can shoot our cool digital cameras, make nice 8x10 negs and contact print for either silver or alternative. Sandy King is happy so why can't we be? :smile: Life goes on..the least of my worries, actually.
 
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When it comes to switching to digital , why not video cameras. I watched at Vimeo , Irina Shatalova ,an VGIK Graduate , lighthouse keeper film and I fully believe Sony Z1 with Zeiss lenses for 2500 dollars , is faraway better than %99.9 of APUG Gallery pictures.
watch this , a great documentary[video=vimeo;732650]http://vimeo.com/732650[/video]
 

MaximusM3

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Going back to David's original post.."A dozen years ago"...well, this guy here, had already beaten them and they didn't even know it, a few years before that. Being well ahead of the curve requires genius, and they just didn't have it. Watch this at the 2.99 minute mark..about 20 years ago or so...that's not marketing, that's pure vision of a brilliant mind. http://youtu.be/zvjil4oB0uA
 

zsas

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And to continue on your point Max, a brilliant visionary, statistically speaking, typically comes within the company, not a CEO from the outside (ie Perez), I think Photo Engineer should have ascended to the ranks of Kodak back in the day than Perez.....check this out, you will know what I mean....Jim Collins stats....amazing...
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-cult-of-the-superstar-ceo-2011-10-07
 
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