Kodak Concedes Difficulty in Drawing Lead Bidder for Patents

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Roger Cole

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Who's Dan? If you mean the poster I was replying to, his post is doubly puzzling in that case because the rest of the post sounded optimistic. That's why I was so confused about it - he sounded like he was saying "of course this won't happen" yet in the same post also saying Kodak film would survive.

Maybe he's saying the overall company will survive and film will continue to be part of it. I don't know - I couldn't puzzle it out.
 
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Who's Dan?...
Dan is Dan Bayer, who posts here as PKM-25. If you click on the Kodachrome Project link in his signature block, you'll be taken to some of his work. Note the copyright notice at the Kodachrome Project pages' bottom.

...If you mean the poster I was replying to, his post is doubly puzzling in that case because the rest of the post sounded optimistic. That's why I was so confused about it...
Dan is apparently just as weary of the wasteful, negative Kodak speculation in forum threads/posts as I am. His approach, despite a realistic appreciation of how unlikely it is that Kodak's film division will survive, seems to be an attempt to engender positive results by promoting Kodak products. While wishing him all success in that endeavor (after all, someone does occasionally beat the odds and win a Mega Millions jackpot), I don't hold out much hope. It just seems more productive to take a probabilistic approach and support Ilford.
 

Photo Engineer

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Thanks Ken!

As for Kodak's film division surviving, EK has spun off several divisions which are doing well on their own. Management is set up to allow this transition to take place quite easily. In fact, the most recent reorganization described here on APUG will improve the ease of such a transition. In fact, such a transition may have been anticipated.

There are so many rumors here in Rochester that are possible or impossible I never bother to post any, but some of them are quite plausible. Lets just say that film is not done until it is really done! The same is true for EK!

PE
 

Roger Cole

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Well I'm doing pretty much both. I'm going to look at chest freezers this afternoon. And I'm also hoping Kodak film survives, however that comes about.

I concede the odds are not good, but I don't think they're as long as a mega millions lottery. Remember when Ilford looked doomed? What were the odds the employees would successfully buy the company, right size it, and make it the vibrant entity it is today? Granted this particular scenario can't happen with Kodak.
 

mikendawn

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Personally, I believe that if Kodak folds as a company, their film division can survive as a separate entity. Their film division is the profitable one, albeit marginally.
While their digital marketing side is being caught in a flux of the market, through the ups and downs of digital camera sales, it sadly is what is bringing the company down to its knees, so to speak, before the market share giants.

Should Kodak die, their chemical division will continue on, as the chems are manufactured and sold under license. I don't see why the same can't be done for their film line.

Of course time will tell in the long run.
 

PKM-25

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My view of Kodak in terms of film is simple. I trust the people who make it and hope to have a budget to market it well enough that I am trying to be positive. But I distrust the forces of the reorganization and the top tier management enough to where I have stockpiled thousands of dollars in film and chemistry in case it goes bust.

I am apprehensive about how the results of the patent auctions are going and have about a grand in TMY 4x5 in my basket ready to go at B&H. I don't know anymore than anyone else here, that is why I even read the thread.
 

BrianShaw

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A realistic viewpoint, in my opinion. I'm not stockpiling yet, though, in any serious way.
 

RattyMouse

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Thanks Ken. I was trying to be generic so that those in Europe would see the items at Fotoimpex.

PE

Wow, I wish I could flip through your book. That's a lot of money for a book that I would read with great interest, but probably not go through with making my own film. I'm a formulation chemist in another industry and would love to see some behind the scenes work with film.
 

RattyMouse

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Yet another instance of someone knowing the price of all things but the value of none.

OK, time for more posts about how expensive film and paper are. :munch:

Uh...if I KNOW that I'm not going to use the information contained in the book to make my own films,etc, the value is pretty much known to me. Perhaps it is you who do not understand.
 

SkipA

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Sal may have just gotten up on the wrong side of the bed, RattyMouse, or maybe he was posting before his morning coffee. I wouldn't worry about it. Lots of people probably feel the same as you. I have almost bought the book and DVDs several times, but each time I backed down. It's on my list and I'll probably eventually buy it, but my desire to replace my broken color enlarging head is more urgent. It is, in fact, a value proposition. If I were hungry, I'd spend my money first on food.
 
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Wow, I wish I could flip through your book. That's a lot of money...
Yet another instance of someone knowing the price of all things but the value of none.

OK, time for more posts about how expensive film and paper are. :munch:
Uh...if I KNOW that I'm not going to use the information contained in the book to make my own films,etc, the value is pretty much known to me. Perhaps it is you who do not understand.
I understand completely. Your approach leads to two things. First, when practiced in retail book stores, it results in dog-eared books that nobody purchases; a loss to the merchant, distributor, publisher and author. Second, it assigns a monetary value of zero to Ron's labors. He spent years writing the book and preparing the CD. Your willingness to pay nothing for it indicates it (and his knowledge/effort) has no value.

Sal may have just gotten up on the wrong side of the bed...or maybe he was posting before his morning coffee...
There's no need to make excuses for me. I always arise on the same side of my bed and never consume coffee. I posted in reaction not only to the quote included, but also in frustration with many, many others who have over the years complained bitterly with every Kodak price increase announcement. Thus the second sentence of my post.

Reality sucks. Kodak has a large, high-volume film coating line it transitioned to in the 1990s. That line requires coating huge quantities of material to be profitable. With mass markets having moved to digital, the expense Kodak's coating approach must be amortized over ever lower sales, especially when spoilage in storage results. Can those posting on this and similar forums who sing the praises of Kodak products grasp how that must necessarily result in higher unit prices? Do they understand the value of Kodak film quality? No. Instead, they continuously complain about the price. Perhaps now you'll understand what I wrote.
 

SkipA

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I have to admit you were a bit cryptic there, Sal, the first time around. You just sounded sour. But anyway, I'm not one of those who complain about the price. I just buy what I can use or afford to stockpile, and I'm happy to have it available to me. It will be a bummer when its gone. I'll hold out hope and keep buying until that happens. It's not gone until it's gone.
 

RattyMouse

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I understand completely. Your approach leads to two things. First, when practiced in retail book stores, it results in dog-eared books that nobody purchases; a loss to the merchant, distributor, publisher and author. Second, it assigns a monetary value of zero to Ron's labors. He spent years writing the book and preparing the CD. Your willingness to pay nothing for it indicates it (and his knowledge/effort) has no value.

There's no need to make excuses for me. I always arise on the same side of my bed and never consume coffee. I posted in reaction not only to the quote included, but also in frustration with many, many others who have over the years complained bitterly with every Kodak price increase announcement. Thus the second sentence of my post.

Reality sucks. Kodak has a large, high-volume film coating line it transitioned to in the 1990s. That line requires coating huge quantities of material to be profitable. With mass markets having moved to digital, the expense Kodak's coating approach must be amortized over ever lower sales, especially when spoilage in storage results. Can those posting on this and similar forums who sing the praises of Kodak products grasp how that must necessarily result in higher unit prices? Do they understand the value of Kodak film quality? No. Instead, they continuously complain about the price. Perhaps now you'll understand what I wrote.


1. I don't dog ear books when I read them in the book store. In fact that vast majority of people leave books as they found them. You take a tiny phenomena and blow it way out of proportion. I also read most of my books from a library. Does my doing so for free devalue anyone's work? What about when I borrow a book from someone?

2. You know NOTHING about how much I value or don't value PE's work. You look more than a little pompous stating such. I have limited funds and I have to spend it wisely. A $120 book has to have a return to me besides intellectual interest at this point. Your nonsensical viewpoint completely misses the point.

3. I have never once complained about the cost of film so you introducing this into your rant is again, nonsensical. i value good film otherwise I would not have just purchased a film camera. Nor would I have shot 6 rolls of film (ACROS 100) this weekend.

The fact is, I cannot justify purchasing a $120 book now. If it were $20, I could be more free about such a things. As it is now, I have a photography hobby to support while raising two kids. The funds have to stop somewhere and a $120 book doesnt make the cut now.

It is shocking that something as basic as this needs explaining.
 

Roger Cole

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Yeah. Now I remember why I have Sal on ignore at the LFPF. It's a little harder here, but it is possible.

I don't devalue Ron's work when I choose to spend my money on books about stuff I will actually use. I'm sure it's awesome if I were going to make my own film. I can't see myself doing that unless commercial film goes away completely so... none of us have unlimited money. We have to spend it where it will do us the most good. This has NOTHING to do with the amount or quality of work someone put in to creating it.

No offense Ron. I'm sure it's excellent. But I'm not going to be coating my own anytime soon (I hope, anyway, not as long as Ilford is around at least.)
 

RattyMouse

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Yeah. Now I remember why I have Sal on ignore at the LFPF. It's a little harder here, but it is possible.

I don't devalue Ron's work when I choose to spend my money on books about stuff I will actually use. I'm sure it's awesome if I were going to make my own film. I can't see myself doing that unless commercial film goes away completely so... none of us have unlimited money. We have to spend it where it will do us the most good. This has NOTHING to do with the amount or quality of work someone put in to creating it.

No offense Ron. I'm sure it's excellent. But I'm not going to be coating my own anytime soon (I hope, anyway, not as long as Ilford is around at least.)

I've never thought about putting someone on ignore here. I'll have to look into that.

PE's book is surely outstanding. I'm a practicing formulation chemist in a field unrelated to photography. I've been formulating products for 20 years and often wonder about the various differences between all the types of films. Even more basic, I'd like to learn about the raw materials one can find in film. I'm sure PE's book would be a fascinating read. I'm envious of PE's experience.

Books in my field of work go for $120 or a LOT more. A book like PE's has ever right to cost what it does, because the appeal is very limited and so sales will not be high.

Just because I cant afford a $120 book does NOT mean that I dont value it. Such an assumption is pure nonsense.
 

PKM-25

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Sigh.....

I hope we get even a tiny bit of good news from the patent auctions tomorrow, I think everyone could use it.
 

Photo Engineer

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Today is the day they announce the result of the auction.

February 2013 is the big announcement about the CH 11 results.

Lets hope for the best both times.

PE
 
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...I don't dog ear books when I read them in the book store....I have never once complained about the cost of film so you introducing this into your rant is again, nonsensical...It is shocking that something as basic as this needs explaining.
Nothing you wrote needed explaining. You have taken my observations and, instead of considering the possibility that they are valid, decided to attack the observer.

Brian, why the recurring need to perform a Steve Jobs deathbed impression? :smile:

Yeah. Now I remember why I have Sal on ignore at the LFPF...
Gee Roger, that's the first time anyone has posted they've done so. I find it quite amusing since, unlike some members, my practice has been to avoid wordy, repetitive comments, mistaking a forum for a chat room or stating opinions as fact.

I've only used the ignore function (here and at largeformatphotography.info) for a handful of people who are rude, obnoxious and/or passive/aggressive. You don't qualify as any of those, so I'll not add you to my list at either forum. :smile:

...A book like PE's has ever right to cost what it does, because the appeal is very limited and so sales will not be high.

Just because I cant afford a $120 book does NOT mean that I dont value it. Such an assumption is pure nonsense.
The market environment we live in sets a thing's value at what someone is willing to pay for it. That you can't afford it is not the crux. Rather, that you "wish you could flip through it" without buying it is. You've valued it at $0. I made no assumption -- it's an observation. An uncomfortable one, perhaps, but valid.
 

kb3lms

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Kodak had plants in: ...

Does anyone know, is X-Ray film still coated in the Windsor, CO, plant or is that moved to Rochester? Despite the plethora of digital medical imaging devices, I have got to believe Kodak still sells a boatload of T-Mat G. X-ray is a cheap modality and very widely available. With currently climbing medical care costs I would think the insurance companies would be pushing x-ray because it is so cheap. At one time, medical imaging films were several billion a year in profit, never mind sales. Of course, they (kodak) had pretty much tried kill off that product towards the late 1990s, early 2000's as well in the name of "core competencies". DuPont, Fuji and Agfa were the major competitors in the 80s and 90s. I'd heard at my current job that DuPont got out of the business (for the same "core competencies" reasoning but they have teflon and stuff to sell) but I believe both Fuji and Agfa still coat X-Ray film today.
 

kb3lms

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All the business factors almost certainly preclude Kodak's film division

aka Accountants = TROLLS!!!!! :tongue:
 
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