Kodak Concedes Difficulty in Drawing Lead Bidder for Patents

PKM-25 · Aug 10, 2012

Ken Nadvornick said:
PKM-25 (Dan), could it be that your frustration with other's frustrations results from the fact that you DO have current contacts at Kodakpresumably cultivated via your Kodachrome Projectthat are saying things to you off the record, and we DON'T? And that if the rest of us were in a position to hear what you've heard, we might see the situation more like you do? You drop tasty hints. But you're obviously not in an unconstrained position to follow them up with hard information. Or even hard speculation.

Nope, I only know to a small degree what efforts are being planned in terms of marketing, the most important thing I know is that they are re-vamping the site and that since all marketing budgets were logically slashed in the face of reorganization they are relying heavily on word of mouth, social and people like us to use the stuff and keep the faith. I just see how many posts these topics get compared to others and it is a kind of a downer. For example, there is a guy who posted does film have a future not long ago and it is already well on the way to three pages long..

It's like people talking incessantly about guitars and rarely do we hear a note, kind of sad...

RattyMouse · Aug 10, 2012

PKM-25 said:
Nope, I only know to a small degree what efforts are being planned in terms of marketing, the most important thing I know is that they are re-vamping the site and that since all marketing budgets were logically slashed in the face of reorganization they are relying heavily on word of mouth, social and people like us to use the stuff and keep the faith. I just see how many posts these topics get compared to others and it is a kind of a downer. For example, there is a guy who posted does film have a future not long ago and it is already well on the way to three pages long..

It's like people talking incessantly about guitars and rarely do we hear a note, kind of sad...

People discuss what is on their mind at forums. This happens all across various topics. With regards to film, topics like this appear at other places besides apug.org. Why? Because the state of film today and its potential future inspire such questions. People want to talk about it. Where? At forums. This is a natural process and it appears that this bothers you a lot. Perhaps not reading here would be of help to you, or more positively, start discussions about what YOU want to talk about.

Roger Cole · Aug 10, 2012

PKM-25 said:
I'm sure they are stressed, but hopeful. I think we all know what the chances are of a film division survival or even a purchase / spin off.

We do??

I think we DON'T. And maybe that's what you meant.

Roger Cole · Aug 10, 2012

PKM-25 said:
Nope, I only know to a small degree what efforts are being planned in terms of marketing, the most important thing I know is that they are re-vamping the site and that since all marketing budgets were logically slashed in the face of reorganization they are relying heavily on word of mouth, social and people like us to use the stuff and keep the faith. I just see how many posts these topics get compared to others and it is a kind of a downer. For example, there is a guy who posted does film have a future not long ago and it is already well on the way to three pages long..

It's like people talking incessantly about guitars and rarely do we hear a note, kind of sad...

[video=youtube;d8IBnfkcrsM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8IBnfkcrsM[/video]

OTOH, I'm going to spend a fair amount of time in the darkroom this weekend. I have so much backlog I need to do that much more than shoot more. There's a healthy mix of Kodak (TMY-2 in 4x5, Tri-X and TMZ in 35mm, Tri-X in 120) Ilford (Pan F+, FP4 and Delta 3200 in 120) and even some Foma (Fomapan 400 4x5) that I need to develop, and prints to make from already developed FP4+, Pan F+ and TMZ negatives. I have here on my desk three rolls of 120/220 C41 to go into the mail, two Portra 400 and an obviously outdated but frozen until used 220 roll of Agfa Optima II 400, plus three rolls of E6, an E200, an Elitechrome 100 (and I will miss them, still have some of both in the freezer) and a Fujichrome 400 (great film.)

Of that, all but the Optima, which isn't as good as the Portra 400 anyway, and the Kodak E6 are available new. I'll print the black and white on superb papers, Ilford MGWT FB and Adox MCC 110. Photo life is good.

Ken Nadvornick · Aug 10, 2012

PKM-25 said:
It's like people talking incessantly about guitars and rarely do we hear a note, kind of sad...

Well, tomorrow (Saturday) I'm off with my GF670 folder to hang out down at the wharf district in Seattle for the entire day. The weather forecast looks good—a minor miracle in Western Washington, even in August—and I don't want to waste it. Always lots of interesting stuff there for an ongoing small project of mine. And a fine chance to continue getting used to a fine new camera.

Then Sunday morning I'll set my alarm for 4:30am in order to be set up onsite at a pre-scouted location to catch the early morning sunrise on a newly restored bit of wonderful Americana subject matter. This will involve my fully restored 8x10 Calumet C1 and a pair of G-Clarons. Given the rarity of this format out in the wild, it will also likely involve yet another impromptu film and camera seminar with the curious who are always attracted. Always a good opportunity to educate people about the ancient ways of photography.

And I always keep a stepstool in the truck just for the kids who always want to look under the darkcloth to see for themselves just what the mystery is all about. ("That's the biggest LCD I've ever seen! But it's upside down!!")

So although it's not my vocation, it is my avocation. And you're not the only one out there practicing it.

Ken

RattyMouse · Aug 10, 2012

Outstanding Ken! Outstanding!

Good luck!

RattyMouse · Aug 10, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
Well Brian, they made a lot of bad decisions, but they are still making them right up to today! Past, present and probably into the future unless someone makes a big turnaround.

Fuji is making a good profit from selling cut sheet CA color paper, but Kodak discontinued cut sheet Endura. Kodak requires a dealer to order a minimum case quantity of certain items which have come in larger and larger sizes and case size thus making it hard for the smaller dealer to stock or order.

EK has reduced the local sales "zones" and shuffled them such that if I buy some film here in Rochester, it comes from the Atlanta sales zone. There used to be a Rochester sales zone which was quite logical. They have muddled the zones in Hollywood in the same way.

PE

Hey PE, at Kodak's peak, how many film plants did they have running? Do you know that kind of information? I am just curious as the plants seem to have had enormous capacity. It is impossible for me to guess how many plants they had that produced film.

Photo Engineer · Aug 10, 2012

Kodak had plants in:

Australia - coated just about everything.
Canada - B&W paper and some films
Brazil - B&W paper
China - Joint production of color films
England (Harrow) - Just about everything.
France (Chalon) - Just about everything
US - Colorado - Medical products (Films) and color paper in wide widths.
- Rochester - Everything 6 color paper machines (4 in operation at any one time), B&W paper coaters, pilot coaters, 21" film machnes and two or three full width film machines. Research had about 10 coaters, the widest were 10".

Now there are only 2:

Rochester - Film
Harrow - Color paper

And by contract when needed - wide color paper on demand at Colorado.

See fit to add or subtract, as my memory is not what it used to be.

PE

BrianShaw · Aug 10, 2012

Knowing the number of plants would be interesting, but I'd also like to know production rates and major customers, and the demand of those major customers. Us still photographers are likely to have always been minority consumers... considering Kodaks customers in motion picture industry, US government, other governments, etc.

Photo Engineer · Aug 10, 2012

Brian;

When I was one of the people leading the film work at Cape Canaveral in 1961 -1962, we used $50 M in all film and paper products and had them delivered by refrigerated freight car! When I joined EK in 1965, they were making 500M sq ft of color paper / year at about $1 / square foot retail. That dropped to about $0.50 / square foot as production improved, mainly by means of higher speeds and the slide coater. The curtain coater tripled that speed. This is just a tiny look into very secret figures that go far beyond this.

Just as a side note, in 2005 Kodak expected about a 30% drop in sales for the whole year, but it dropped 30% in one quarter. Kodak shut down the paper plant, Agfa failed and Ilford ran into problems. So, this is endemic to the whole business.

PE

BrianShaw · Aug 10, 2012

... I could only guess about some of the other "secrets"... but know better than to guess out loud or ask!

Roger Cole · Aug 10, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
Brian;

When I was on of the people leading the film work at Cape Canaveral in 1961 -1962, we used $50 M in all film and paper products and had them delivered by refrigerated freight car! When I joined EK in 1065, they were making 500M sq ft of color paper / year at about $1 / square foot retail. That dropped to about $0.50 / square foot as production improved, mainly by means of higher speeds and the slide coater. The curtain coater tripled that speed. This is just a tiny look into very secret figures that go far beyond this.

Just as a side note, in 2005 Kodak expected about a 30% drop in sales for the whole year, but it dropped 30% in one quarter. Kodak shut down the paper plant, Agfa failed and Ilford ran into problems. So, this is endemic to the whole business.

PE

Wow! Did you get some photographs of the Norman invasion the next year?

(J/K, I know that was a typo and most likely supposed to be 1965.)

Photo Engineer · Aug 10, 2012

Roger, I fixed that. But Harry too a quarrel in the eye the next year didn't he? What a bummer!

PE

RattyMouse · Aug 10, 2012

Thanks PE! You sure have a lot of history to share. I appreciate your time.

Photo Engineer · Aug 10, 2012

So pay me. I'm retired!

Actually, buy my book and DVD.

PE

zsas · Aug 10, 2012

Journal:http://wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443537404577581542972796710.html

Kodak Patent Bidding Is Tame

RattyMouse · Aug 11, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
So pay me. I'm retired!

Actually, buy my book and DVD.

PE

I am very new here and dont know about either your book or DVD. Please inform me. Is there a web site that has all the details?

RattyMouse · Aug 11, 2012

zsas said:
Journal:http://wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443537404577581542972796710.html

Disappointing news for sure.

Photo Engineer · Aug 11, 2012

RattyMouse said:
I am very new here and dont know about either your book or DVD. Please inform me. Is there a web site that has all the details?

Just follow the banner ads here on APUG.

PE

Ken Nadvornick · Aug 11, 2012

RattyMouse said:
I am very new here and dont know about either your book or DVD. Please inform me. Is there a web site that has all the details?

"Photographic Emulsion Making, Coating and Testing" Book & DVDs By Ron Mowrey

Ken

Photo Engineer · Aug 11, 2012

Thanks Ken. I was trying to be generic so that those in Europe would see the items at Fotoimpex.

PE

Sal Santamaura · Aug 11, 2012

PKM-25 said:
...I think we all know what the chances are of a film division survival or even a purchase / spin off...

Roger Cole said:
We do??...

Yes, we do. About the same probability as winning a Mega Millions jackpot.

The absolute futility of these discussions is amazing. If you love Kodak film, load up your freezer with it. If it's color, buy a Jobo, since commercial color processing will not likely last much longer than Kodak.

If you love black and white film (but not a particular Kodak emulsion), buy it -- as well as your paper -- from Ilford. Among first-tier quality manufacturers, Ilford will be producing for the longest time. If Ilford's site lease isn't renewed when it expires in another (approximately) fourteen years and/or its owners' children aren't interested in taking over the business when their parents reach retirement age, make sure you've loaded up your freezer with Ilford's products too.

Otherwise, either start coating your own or move on to electronic imaging. It's really as simple as that. No gnashing of teeth (or the forum posting equivalent) will change things. APUG's membership number multiplied by ten couldn't affect the market sufficiently to alter these realities.

Ken Nadvornick · Aug 11, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
Thanks Ken. I was trying to be generic so that those in Europe would see the items at Fotoimpex.

No such thing as too much word-of-mouth. The full set is on my Christmas list as well...

Ken

Roger Cole · Aug 11, 2012

Utter nonsense Sal. We do NOT know - and neither do you.

And as much as I love Ilford, and as much as I agree that they make great black and white products worthy of our support, they are not the ONLY game in town. Black and white is easy enough to make that someone would step in. Foma is doing fairly well and Adox is coating great paper and will no doubt get film figured out, or would if we didn't have so many other options for black and white.

I'd give up imaging as a hobby if we only had digital. This isn't bashing, I simply don't particularly enjoy it.

Sal Santamaura · Aug 11, 2012

Roger Cole said:
Utter nonsense Sal. We do NOT know...

Dan and I and everyone else who's observed the corporate world "know" in the same probabilistic sense that we "know" we're not going to win a Mega Millions jackpot. All the business factors almost certainly preclude Kodak's film division, as circumstances have shaped it to be, surviving or being sold / spun off. Nothing to do with the products, people that actually make them or superiority of chemical imaging. Reality simply sucks, but it's real.

Roger Cole said:
...I'd give up imaging as a hobby if we only had digital...I simply don't particularly enjoy it.

That sums up my attitude perfectly. However, I don't let the sentiment blind me to reality. Kodak management made many decisions over the course of decades that rendered yellow-box film's demise virtually unavoidable.

I become frustrated reading multiple threads/posts by people who emotionally refuse to see that reality. It's an utter waste of bandwidth and time that could be better used photographing. I've filled my closet and freezer with "doomsday" supplies of Azo and 5x7 320TXP respectively, against the possibility that I'll outlive Ilford. In the meantime, I'm happily shooting Ilford film and printing the resulting negatives on Ilford paper. My suggestion to anyone concerned about the future: stop "talking" about it and do something similar.

Kodak Concedes Difficulty in Drawing Lead Bidder for Patents

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