Kodak Clarification

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Uncle Bill

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What pains me is I love shooting with Kodak Tri-x, Plus-x, Kodachrome 64, E 100 VS and processing B&W film with HC110. Truthfully if the above products are available as long as I can lift a camera up, I will be buying them.

It comes down to perception, as a consumer (the Public relations hat is off) I get the impression that Eastman Kodak does not value my business and sees me (and other film shooters) as an anachronism. So I am left more of an ambivalence, love the product, the orgranization that makes/markets them not so much.

Bill
 

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Thanks for the comments guys.

Basically, Kodak 'grew up' dealing not with people but with other big companies which were their customers. You went to a small film store, but they dealt with the wholesaler who dealt with Kodak.

In this new market, Kodak has not yet learned to respond to individuals, and what is worse, due to shrinkage of staff, fewer people have the time to attend to the customers.

Kodak knows how to deal with Walmart and Ritz and places like that though.

PE
 

Gatsby1923

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APUG does seem hostile to Kodak.

The overwhelming tone is anti-Kodak and has been for quite some time.

I agree with the comment that people seem to want to see Kodak leave analog so they can say "I told you so". How many of you would work for little or no pay? Kodak will not and when customers go to less expensive products, then Kodak stops making theirs.

Remember that many of these smaller companies did not have to do R&D on Dektol, HC110, XTOL, Liquid Fix et. Kodak published formulas for many of these and now they are being produced by others with no overhead for the R&D that made them possible.

Oh well, perhaps my comments are useless in this venue. BTW, I am probably the only person on APUG who has spoken to Antonio Perez face to face and addressed the issue of analog photography.

So...

Anyhow. Have a nice day.

PE


Amen P.E. As long as I can get Dektol, HC110, TMax Films, etc I will shop with Kodak. Rather than complain about say losing Kodacrhome 200 go buy some. If say next friday 10,000 of us bought Kodachrome 200 and continued to do so it would not be discontinued. That all being said we won't do that. I have no use for that product and I would assume few of the world's film shooters do. Thats why it was discontinued.

Few people used AZO so same deal. I Lament the passing of Kodak papers but most of my photo friends used Ilford and Agfa.

Just my rant on the subject

Dave M
 

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I don't get the Kodak bashing either it's a first rate product.Kodak is only doing what they think the shareholders want right or wrong. Use it while you can.

Ron I'd also like to say your the bomb, you've probably forgotton more about photo chemistry then any of us will ever know. I love reading the threads on your testing of the emulsions.
 

Paul Howell

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It has only been in the few years that I stopped using Kodak. The main reason is that in my market it was hard to get many of the products that I liked, (polycontast 4 and polymax paper) and others products that I liked, such as Microdol and Xtol ,Kodak stopped making the sizes that worked best for me. I have can only recall one issue (very recent) with Kodak quailty control. I dont think of my self as anti Kodak, I really miss Kodak papers, and will miss Kodak films as well if Kodak films goes way. The market is changing and considering my volume of use and budget I found a few alternatives that fit my needs, just as Kodak makes desicions based on the best intrest of Kodak I need to make my desisions based on what is working for me.
 

Michel Hardy-Vallée

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Remember that many of these smaller companies did not have to do R&D on Dektol, HC110, XTOL, Liquid Fix et. Kodak published formulas for many of these and now they are being produced by others with no overhead for the R&D that made them possible.

Let's not forget D-76, the film developer that changed the face of photography forever!

Ron, to add to the other comments, I think you're probably the most well strategically placed person for APUG and sadly someone who does not get enough credit for his knowledge. Wasn't it Hurter and Driffield who concluded that despite the knowledge they were able to gather scientifically about photography, photographers still preferred listening to snake oilers and go on with their heuristics?

I would also be very keen to know what Mr Perez had to say about film, if that is not classified information.

And I think you're the final word on stop baths! :wink:
 

FrankB

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You guys slay me. Too funny.

Explain to me why the head or any executives of a huge multinational like Kodak should even bother with us? We're 18,000 (max-possible) film users out of tens of millions, maybe less than 1% of all potential film users - and hostile to Kodak at that. So why would they feel welcome here?

Reading all these posts, I certainly could see why they would think APUG is a place for anti-Kodak zealots.

The title of the thread is "Kodak Clarification". Unfortunately the quote from Kodak is (IMO) not a clarification of anything; it appears to be simply spin. (As a UK resident I'm an expert in this through a process of total immersion courtesy of our government! :rolleyes: )

Whether the statement "correctly attributed" to Perez is taken in or out of context, "film is dead" is sort of hard to misinterpret.

I have absolutely no ill-will towards Kodak. Their contribution to traditional photography is vast and their remaining products are still amongst the best in the world. I have the greatest respect for their craftsmen, past and present, and the knowledge that they hold.

I'm going to have a bash at breaking this email down statement by statement to analyse its meaning properly. In doing so without seeing the email(s) to which it responded I'm going to have to make the following assumptions -

  • The initial emails expressed concern and quoted Perez's "film is dead" statement.

"I was asked to respond to your inquiry, since I am familiar with the issues you raise and would make a couple of key points." Intro - no data

First Antonio Perez has heard from many people like you who are loyal film photographers -- both consumers and professionals. The "film is dead" comment provoked several emails.

Kodak continues to offer the widest lineup of films and we continue to invest in the business -- as evidenced by the fact that a number of products carry "new and improved" labels because of our investment. We will continue to respond to the market and that market remains an attractive one, Known historical background information plus a note that Kodak has recently introduced new developments in traditional technologies plus a note that some areas of Kodak are aware that they're still making profit out of the traditional marketplace.

even as we reduce costs and cut back production in the face of the reality of lower demand for our traditional products. A realistic assessment (IMO), and a hard fact that the entire industry is facing.

Regarding the statement correctly attributed to Mr. Perez, it obviously has been taken out of context. Accurate. The words "film is dead" have been stated repeatedly without reference to the rest of the article/presentation. (I'm still at a loss to see how they could be misinterpreted, though...)

Today, in fact, Kodak is a heavily digital company, as revenues in these businesses, both consumer and professional, now surpass our traditional photo business. Background info. Nothing new AFAICS, YMMV.

But in many ways, the businesses are also complementary and do work closely together. Ermmm... I can't see how, but then I'm not an expert. It looks like spin to me but other members may be able to clarify.

Mr. Perez was simply reflecting the need to move into businesses that are growing, and we have obviously been successful in doing so. Now that's spin! :smile:

Again, many thanks for your comments. You can be assured that we all this feedback from consumers very seriously. ...aaaaand my spinometer just exploded! :D Fair enough, though. I'd expect a similar sign-off from any marketing dept.

Like I said, no offence intended Art, but IMO it's not really a clarification.
 
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FrankB

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Oh brother. Too funny.

Glad I could provide some amusement. :rolleyes:

(Just a thought - It's a shame we don't have smiley-equivalents for hand gestures, isn't it?!)
 
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Helen B

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Thanks for the comments guys.

Basically, Kodak 'grew up' dealing not with people but with other big companies which were their customers. You went to a small film store, but they dealt with the wholesaler who dealt with Kodak.

In this new market, Kodak has not yet learned to respond to individuals, and what is worse, due to shrinkage of staff, fewer people have the time to attend to the customers.

Kodak knows how to deal with Walmart and Ritz and places like that though.

PE

Sorry to say this, but I don't entirely agree. No matter which part of the world I have been in I have found the local EK customer service and technical support to be second to none. You can call EK up, ask a technical question, then be connected to someone who can answer it, and who is interested in helping you.

Which is more important: good PR or good technical support?

Which other company was handing out two free rolls of film to every person that came to their stand at Photo Plus? Which other company has mailed four rolls of free film to goodness knows how many thousand people?

Best,
Helen
 

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Let's not forget D-76, the film developer that changed the face of photography forever!

Ron, to add to the other comments, I think you're probably the most well strategically placed person for APUG and sadly someone who does not get enough credit for his knowledge. Wasn't it Hurter and Driffield who concluded that despite the knowledge they were able to gather scientifically about photography, photographers still preferred listening to snake oilers and go on with their heuristics?

I would also be very keen to know what Mr Perez had to say about film, if that is not classified information.

And I think you're the final word on stop baths! :wink:

Michel;

IDK if H&D said that, but I do believe it to be true even today considering all of the myths that I have seen here and elsewhere. A lot of people seem to want to talk about the 'science' of photography but know little of it at all. In fact, to photo engineers, the zone system is the H&D system for dummies (If you will forgive me for that wisecrack).

As for Perez, I asked him about the reason behind Kodak leaving B&W paper behind and he said "Ron, Kodak was hemmoraging money out of the B&W paper area and we just could not stay in it!" He added "I have personally answered a number of messages from concerned customers and tried to let them know we share their concern, but in a company this large, I simply cannot answer each and every message or I would never get my work done".

I think it was an honest and sincere answer for our group, but one which did not contain any classified information. My comments above, while in quotes, only refelect the degree to which I remember his actual words. I think I have reproduced them well enough though.

There are other reasons as well, but I really don't want to get into them here. They relate in no way to APUG or the users of products, but more to technical matters.

As for the quote, it was not the 'film is dead' quote but rather, I think, the one that I posted from the D&C earlier this week by Perez.

PE
 

Photo Engineer

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Sorry to say this, but I don't entirely agree. No matter which part of the world I have been in I have found the local EK customer service and technical support to be second to none. You can call EK up, ask a technical question, then be connected to someone who can answer it, and who is interested in helping you.

Which is more important: good PR or good technical support?

Which other company was handing out two free rolls of film to every person that came to their stand at Photo Plus? Which other company has mailed four rolls of free film to goodness knows how many thousand people?

Best,
Helen

Helen;

I agree.

Please don't confuse technical support or customer service with sales. I was referring to sales in that response of mine.

The left hand does not know what the right hand is doing.

Kodak is like a brontosaurus with two brains. The back brain gets a message of distress and begins the back legs moving in a full gallop. The front brain has no message yet. Finally, the back legs catch up with the front legs and the beast falls on its face. So, there you have my tongue in cheek visualization of Kodak. Lets hope this dinosaur does not get eaten while down and out.

PE
 

copake_ham

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I'm figuring there are three possible outcomes with Kodak and traditional photography:

1) They spin it off (a'la Ilford) via some form of buyout which can more profitably operate the business at reduced sales volumes.

2) They figure out that they can keep a traditional photography division in-house as a niche market producer - so long as it meets overall investor return expectations.

3) They run it down and then kill it.

To me, either 1 or 2 seems preferable to 3. But I often get the feeling that many folk here have already placed their bets on #3.
 

Mark Layne

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All this just reminds me to go and order a box of Ilford Galerie before the bashing Picker gave it in the early 80's takes effect. One of the finest papers left which we don't hear much about.
Mark
 

Chuck_P

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I'm figuring there are three possible outcomes with Kodak and traditional photography:

1) They spin it off (a'la Ilford) via some form of buyout which can more profitably operate the business at reduced sales volumes.

2) They figure out that they can keep a traditional photography division in-house as a niche market producer - so long as it meets overall investor return expectations.

3) They run it down and then kill it.

To me, either 1 or 2 seems preferable to 3. But I often get the feeling that many folk here have already placed their bets on #3.

I agree.

Not only have they bet on #3, they have done so with such hatefulness and bitterness that it really is easy to tell that they also can't wait for it to happen. Someone else eluded to this earlier as well. That kind of talk has got to stop as it simply does not make any sense to carry on in that manner. To me, it is a blatant show of naivete.

CP
 

FrankB

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As stated above, I bear Kodak no ill-feeling and hope they are a supplier of traditional photography materials for many years to come.

However...

I'll be doing my buying from companies that have expressed support for my chosen art-form rather than the opposite. (I fully appreciate that this will make no difference in the great scheme of things whatsoever!)
 

copake_ham

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As stated above, I bear Kodak no ill-feeling and hope they are a supplier of traditional photography materials for many years to come.

However...

I'll be doing my buying from companies that have expressed support for my chosen art-form rather than the opposite. (I fully appreciate that this will make no difference in the great scheme of things whatsoever!)

It sounds then Frank, that what you want to happen is #1.

Let us not forget that today's Ilford is a result of a re-org buy-out.

The question now becomes, how does Kodak "play out"?

1) Buyout
2) In-house niche business
3) Run down to dead

And the sad story is that a lot of folk here seem to think that for some masochistic reason, option #3 is preferable!

I want many film companies making many types of film - that's why I won't turn my back on a major producer in some kind of a "snit". And I also do not want the niche film market to become a monopolistic one.

Yes, buy a roll of HP5 and also a roll of Neopan and also a roll of Tri-X!

Let's keep them all alive dammit!
 

Dorian Gray

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The statement by Antonio Perez about waking up at the helm of a 'digital' company in a year's time was obviously not meant to be taken to mean that Perez sees Kodak as having no film products whatsoever by then. Such an interpretation cannot even be the literal, face-value interpretation, because there is no reason why a predominantly 'digital' company couldn't have other products too. It would also be absurd to think that Perez wants to see one-third of Kodak's revenue sources vanish within a year. The statement was probably merely meant to impress upon the fickle press the notion that Kodak is building momentum with digital products, rather than sitting on its laurels watching its traditional market shrink. Perception is almost as important as reality in the share price battles, and Kodak needs all the good press it can get.

Only the most insecure and over-sensitive reader could take great offense at the statement, but that actually describes the typical film enthusiast these days. So it's vital that Kodak proceeds on tiptoe when talking about these issues, instead of making PR blunder after blunder, to the extent that many long-suffering customers actually feel that Kodak personally dislikes them (which is also absurd, but again, perception is almost as important as reality).

Fujifilm takes a completely different approach to PR. Compare Perez's threat to the following statement:

Fujifilm is committed to providing a wide variety of films for the demanding professional photographer. The 2006 U.S. introduction of Fujichrome T64 Professional and Fujichrome Provia 400X Professional are a reflection of that commitment.

These are comforting words backed up by substance, and pretty credible substance too. Provia 400X in particular strikes me as a no-holds-barred attempt at making the best film possible. As a result, the only people who seem to dislike Fujifilm are those who are jealous of its success, and even they do not hold any real animosity in their hearts. Fujifilm is just too likeable for that. This is despite the fact that Kodak actually has more "traditional" products on the market than Fujifilm!

Kodak has made and continues to make some of the finest "traditional" products on the market, and my experience of their technical support mirrors that of Helen. Kodak has also shut down production of products with cult followings, which inevitably hurts the brand even if it is essential for the viability of the company. But the way in which Kodak has managed public relations and public expectations has been woeful beyond description. For example, not a week goes by without a new rumour about the discontinuation of Kodachrome. Why on earth are we subjected to this?! It is entirely unnecessary. If the film is to remain for another while then Kodak should tell us that officially. If a decision to pull it has been made, then we should be told that clearly and unambiguously at the earliest date. Instead we get leaked emails and "insiders" and friends of "insiders" and probably genuine insiders too, all muttering dark rumours one way or the other, with the result that PKL and KL were discontinued and resurrected at least two dozen times, with varying degrees of official consent, until they finally lost the will to spring to life, genie-like, yet again.

Perez came from Hewlett-Packard, a company in a market where heads rule and emotion plays no role (with the possible exception of Apple). No-one ever bought an HP computer because they fell in love with it. Photography is different: people have a strong emotional connection to it, and in the case of professionals and enthusiasts, this emotional connection often extends to their chosen products. Perez is a fool to be unaware of the importance of nourishing those emotions.
 

JBrunner

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There are several kodak products that I like, and will continue to use as long as I can get them.

The unthinking animosity displayed towards Yellow has allot to do with typical corporate behavior inherent in any large company.

Many people like myself like Kodak products, and have first hand experience of their excellent customer service. However, at EK the right hand often doesn't know what the left hand is doing.

The rep truthfully tells you that there are no plans to discontinue a product, then somebody pulls the rug out from both of you. I think Rons two brained dinosaur analogy hits it right on the head.

There are also struggles that go on within EK. Not supporting EK products flat out undermines those within EK that make an honest living producing and promoting the best film based products in the world. For God's sakes, when has the CEO of any major company said something actually lucid?
 

copake_ham

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... For God's sakes, when has the CEO of any major company said something actually lucid?

Much less the "CEO" of these United States for that matter! :D
 

Tim Gray

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There are several kodak products that I like, and will continue to use as long as I can get them.

I agree with this. I'm more or less new to film, but Kodak makes some excellent products for a good price. I intend to use the heck out of them. If it some point they go away, at least I had the pleasure of using them and knowing that I tried to vote for what I liked with my wallet.
 
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