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fdonadio

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there is, you are right. and in it PE acknowledged that a running water stop worked OK in some of cases. ...

All right, John. I’m not questioning the merit of wether stop baths are really required. And I don’t doubt your experience shows they’re not, as well as your master’s experience.

I was just feeling like: oh, no, this has been discussed before and here we go again! :D
 

Moose22

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Interested readers want to know because we all know that Stop Bath with Indicator is just so damned expensive!

I just started developing a few months ago. I spent like, I dunno, a hundred dollars on various supplies to get started. Of that cost, I think $6 was the indicator stop bath. Which makes gallons of reusable stop bath... heh. Mixing it with distilled water from the supermarket doubles the cost there.

I did the math on photoflo, too. A drop a roll is several thousand rolls. Kind of changes my perspective when amortizing things per roll.

Or maybe I should just think that I had better shoot more film. I've got a hell of a lot of stop bath and detergent to get through.
 

Sirius Glass

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I just started developing a few months ago. I spent like, I dunno, a hundred dollars on various supplies to get started. Of that cost, I think $6 was the indicator stop bath. Which makes gallons of reusable stop bath... heh. Mixing it with distilled water from the supermarket doubles the cost there.

I did the math on photoflo, too. A drop a roll is several thousand rolls. Kind of changes my perspective when amortizing things per roll.

Or maybe I should just think that I had better shoot more film. I've got a hell of a lot of stop bath and detergent to get through.

And yet we get people starting threads here wanting to save money on stop bath, avoiding using stop bath or using dishwashing liquid instead of PhotoFlo.
 

Moose22

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And yet we get people starting threads here wanting to save money on stop bath, avoiding using stop bath or using dishwashing liquid instead of PhotoFlo.

I don't worry about it too much.

I probably don't need either. I got them because they were cheap and photoflo is useful in genreal. And using stop -- it's the "complete" deal to stop development then fix, but people can use whatever they want to stop, or use water, or whatever makes them happy.

For some people, cobbling together solutions is part of the fun of a hobby. Problem solving, learning how things come together from base principles, the joy of experimenting, whatever. Maybe they're not saving money, but folks can have their own kind of fun in their own way. Film photography, this far into the 21st century, is chock full of ways to waste money when there are technically better ways to do things.

So, I accept "Because I want to" as a perfectly valid reason for just about any approach someone takes to almost anything in this hobby.
 

Donald Qualls

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Wise words, I think. If all it was about was the result, we’d all be doing digital (if we are going to be honest with ourselves).

Sigh. Not the digital I can afford.

But I'll admit, to me, it's not photography if I can't smell chemicals (even some that others consider unpleasant, like ammonia and acetic acid).
 

fdonadio

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But I'll admit, to me, it's not photography if I can't smell chemicals (even some that others consider unpleasant, like ammonia and acetic acid).

In fact, in the few years I had my home darkroom, the only times I had to put up with strong smells was when mixing from concentrates.

To really smell stop bath, I need to sniff if from at most half feet away. Even the ammonia-based fixers didn’t smell strong enough to bother me.

Now, that 28% ammonium hydroxide bottle better be tightly capped! :D
 

Donald Qualls

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fdonadio

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If all it was about was the result, we’d all be doing digital (if we are going to be honest with ourselves).

I don’t know about anyone else, but being honest with myself, I would only be doing digital for the convenience of the process.

I am of the opinion that it is possible to get results from a pure analog process that are just as good (or maybe even better) than a pure digital process.

And, like @Donald Qualls, I prefer it the analog way.

I work with computers all the time and even talk about photography through it (or the damn smartphone, like I’m doing now). It’s good to have a hobby that has nothing to do with computers.
 

faberryman

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I work with computers all the time and even talk about photography through it (or the damn smartphone, like I’m doing now). It’s good to have a hobby that has nothing to do with computers.
I think film enthusiasts need to get some new material.
 

Donald Qualls

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I think film enthusiasts need to get some new material.

I wish I could. Twenty years ago there was easily twice the selection of color negative films and several times the E-6 we have now. Black and white, maybe not quite twice. Heck when I came back to photography in '03, there were two Portras in each of two speeds, and a third speed as well.
 

removed account4

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Sigh. Not the digital I can afford

I wouldn't believe the hype that digital photography is unaffordable. depending on your objectives, it can cost less than film photography by a nautical mile,
its just the axe grinders who would make you believe otherwise. its not necessary to have the latest and the greatest.

Is there anything more ironic than a film enthusiast getting on his computer to tell everyone in a film photography forum that it good to have a hobby that has nothing to do with computers?
LOL!
 
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Donald Qualls

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it can cost less than film photography by a nautical mile,

Long term, no doubt -- even the "film" is reusable. OTOH, there's a pretty high bar to entry if you want modern/supported equipment. My RB67 with one lens and two film backs cost less than a basic modern DSLR or mirrorless with one lens, one battery, and maybe no memory card.
 

removed account4

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Long term, no doubt -- even the "film" is reusable. OTOH, there's a pretty high bar to entry if you want modern/supported equipment. My RB67 with one lens and two film backs cost less than a basic modern DSLR or mirrorless with one lens, one battery, and maybe no memory card.
maybe ? but don't believe everything you read / hear
 
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Donald Qualls

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Well, this isn't the forum to discuss it other than it's partly the same reason I don't buy a Minolta SLR or Kiev 88 -- I've got cameras and systems that do what I want, and I'd rather spend money on adding to them (lenses for my Nikkormats or RB67, for instance) than buy into a whole new system that doesn't let me easily use 50 year old glass that's available pretty affordably. I spend enough buying glass that was made in the 1960s and 1970s (looking for a fast prime in the 85 to 105 range in F mount and a 127 for the RB).
 

Moose22

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I am of the opinion that it is possible to get results from a pure analog process that are just as good (or maybe even better) than a pure digital process.

This depends on your definition of good.

And "good" when you're considering it like art has a lot to it that isn't 1s and 0s. If you can produce what you want, the way you want, all analog, and are happier with the results...

I accept your premise. Straight up. And I think it's a great goal, as well.


You define what is good here and, for your work, your opinion is all that matters. Beyond that, now that I've shot medium format for a while and seen what some of the medium and large format shooters here have done, I know what can be done with film is still pretty amazing. Even considering how genuinely fantastic modern digital cameras are.

Is there anything more ironic than a film enthusiast getting on his computer to tell everyone in a film photography forum that it good to have a hobby that has nothing to do with computers?

Friend used to take his dog for walks, to dog parks, to the beach. One of the great joys was the community at the dog park, the exercise he HAD to get walking the dog because you can't not take your dog out every day.

Dude still ordered dog food online, still used the computer to learn about training (they did agility) and where competitions would be held, still had lots of friends at the local rescue and lots of online agility friends, etc... But his dog training hobby was, very much, all about getting outside.

I've spent a lot of after work hours and weekend afternoons walking around with a camera. I can do the same with digital, and I am hybrid so if I want a print I still have to scan and edit ( process which annoys me, but you take good with bad) but I do a hell of a lot less editing with scanned negatives and developing is done standing on my feet in the kitchen. Folks with darkrooms are printing slowly, but it's a hands on process and, again, the process is a change of scene from computers.

There's irony, absolutely, but participating in the community here is just not the same. And learning about chemistry, or composition, or film stocks, or cameras... whatever, it's all different than learning software, which I do all damned day.

Personally, I post here so I'm known and when I ask a stupid question about "how do I?" whatever, one or two kind people will offer advice. And I like to see other people's pictures. Community is different than the photo shops. Learning and being inspired is not the same as constant digital editing, which becomes tedious. Editing sessions can take a couple of hours and are very much like work while this message took 10 minutes of reading and writing while code was compiling and is more like socializing.

So it makes plenty of sense to me.
 

john_s

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......................There was a time when one could factually assert film/darkroom results were better than anything digital (that would obviously have been the case for some time). However not anymore. As with everything else, a superb inkjet print made from a digital photograph requires skill, but the best inkjet prints I've recently seen are at least as good as the best work that can be done in the darkroom, whether B&W or colour. I'm fairly certain nobody would even be able to tell the difference (except that digital editing tools are so powerful one might be able to spot the signs of something which simply could not be done in the darkroom).

I have seen a couple of exhibitions where old negatives, 1930s in one case and 1970s that were less than perfect but with wonderful content were cleaned up and printed digitally and I was astounded at the quality of the restoration. I'm happy to continue to wet print. I spend enough time sitting on my backside.
 

ic-racer

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From the mouth of the Owner of my local dealer “buy all the Kodak chems you can afford, they announced me that they won’t produce any for the foreseeable future”.

We can speculate, or it is maybe old news. But now is your chance to buy XTOL, D76, HC110... who knows what’s happening.
I went to the Kodak Alaris site and did not see this information. At this time I'd say you are mistaken. Do you have any supporting evidence?
 
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Donald, if I could suggest a Nikkor lens in that range that is often (nearly always imo) overlooked is the Ai-S 105mm f/1.8. I finally picked one up in fairly new condition earlier this year and it has now caught my fancy in this middle telephoto range. When I was a young news guy I often wondered Why Nikon had this lens in their stable; I was more enamored with the fine Ai-s 85mm f/1.4 (with CRC) as my everyday carry mid-length tele, it did superb work as a portrait and under-the-net basketball lens, and along with my Nikkor 135mm f/2 to cover mid-court for basketball and volleyball coverage I thought I'd not have a use for the 105mm. I did and still have several of the legendary Nikkor 105mm f/2.5 so I was not ignorant of the usefulness of the 105mm focal length, and occasionally I'd use one for a portrait or shot when I needed that 'almost and in-between' focal length. While I don't think that there is ever a 'perfect' lens the 105/1.8 certainly has some very unique and superb characteristics; sharp (especially for landscape/cityscapes at f/8-11), smooth bokeh for portraits at the useful faster f-stops, (bokeh almost seems to increase and improve as the focus moves closer), all in a small light package (especially compared with today's modern gigantic lens barrels). The front element is heavily curved, and I can see how its fairly easy to collect small marks, so keep an eye on that surface. I've added a thicker filter ring as a front spacer and then attached a Nikon HN-23 solid metal hood for the AF 85mm f/1.8 and that does a good job of shading and provides a firm non-collapsable front so I can slide it into my bags with less concern of nicking the front. Just a heads up while they're 'cheap' Ha.
 

MattKing

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I went to the Kodak Alaris site and did not see this information. At this time I'd say you are mistaken. Do you have any supporting evidence?
Kodak Alaris no longer owns the Kodak branded photo-chemical business. They sold that business to Sino-Promise Holdings, who are having difficulties getting product through a lot of the pandemic related shipping bottlenecks.
Here is their relevant webpage: https://kodak.sinopromise.com/photo-chemistry.html
 

RalphLambrecht

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exactly!
some of the simplest formulas make the best developers (and fixers)
and sometimes the bulk things purchased can be off of amazon (thiosulfate) in a 50lb bag, or white distilled vinegar from the grocery store
and a film developer that rivals D76, PYRO, HC110 and XTOL &c can be made out of a mix between grocery store and bulk from Artcraft, the formulary or one's favorite photochemical supplier... and a teaspoon.
I would be fun to have a list of goodprocessing chemicals made from household supplies. Does that exist somewhere?
 

fdonadio

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s there anything more ironic than a film enthusiast getting on his computer to tell everyone in a film photography forum that it good to have a hobby that has nothing to do with computers?

The irony, hahaha! Yes, it’s a shame.

Recently, a well-known Brazilian film photographer moved in here (the city I live in, I mean). Until then, I was convinced I was the only one here. We’re talking about going out, taking some pictures and sip some coffee. Obviously, we’re doing that through messaging apps on the phone.
 
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