Kodak C41 chemicals and availability

wildbill · Mar 25, 2010

kompressor said:
Freestyle i think will be the best place. Call them and ask for getting you some kits from Rollei. They are sold in Europe by macodirect.de. I use this Rollei Digibase C41 chemistry. I process a lot of film pr. litre and it gives ´me the most beautiful C-41 negs i ever have seen. Since Maco is selling products in big amount trough Freestyle in US, i think its just a matter of asking, if freestyle isnt having it already

I tried. I heard back from them today and apparently it's not available.

Tom Taylor · Mar 26, 2010

Photo Engineer said:
Well, it is probably 5 rolls per liter of 35mm without time adjustment as it says here: http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/acrobat/en/service/Zmanuals/z131_03.pdf

However, my sheet gives time adjustments so here it is. I have two sheets that differ slightly. This one is a bit more conservative. I would be even more conservative.

Enjoy. These are official unreplenished values for tank and tube. I have used these since the 70s.

PE

I think the link refers to the more modern and current Kodak color film while the thumbnails refer to Kodacolor which I believe is an older and now discontinued film that is not as saturated as the modern ones. Do you think that you can process 6 rolls of the modern 135-36 films with a pint of developer?

Table 3-3 Capacity of Unreplenished Solutions
Batch Processing
KODAK Film and Film Size
Developer Capacity*
(rolls/sheets) per
* The capacity for the other solutions (bleach, fixer, and stabilizer) is twice
the number of rolls or sheets given for the developer.
1 gallon 1 litre
Bright Sun, Bright Sun & Flash, ROYAL GOLD 200,
PROFESSIONAL PORTRA 160NC/VC, PROFESSIONAL
PORTRA 100T
135-12 48 12
135-24 22 5
135-36 15 4
110-24 32 8
120 11 3
220 5 1
4 x 5 inches 38 10
8 x 10 inches 10 3
MAX Versatility, MAX Versatility Plus, ROYAL GOLD 400

Photo Engineer · Mar 26, 2010

Tom;

The table you give does not have time compensation, the table I gave does. If you compensate with time, capacity is increased. Also, modern films are MORE forgiving than the older films in this regard due to a thinner structure with lower silver.

If you can give a URL I would be happy to look at the raw data at Kodak's web site.

PE

mtjade2007 · Mar 26, 2010

PE, I believe Tom got the table from Kodak Tech Pub Z-131 which can be found here:
http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/acrobat/en/service/Zmanuals/z131_03.pdf

markbarendt · Mar 26, 2010

There are other options.

I've been using Trebla's Kit for about 7-8 months now just about ready to buy another one.

The kit was discontinued but I found Armadillo Photo Supply and they will happily build complete "10 liter" kits with the starter, replenisher, beach, fix and stabilizer.

They are supposed to send me info on these kits pretty quick, I'll post it as soon as I get it.

Photo Engineer · Mar 26, 2010

mtjade2007 said:
PE, I believe Tom got the table from Kodak Tech Pub Z-131 which can be found here:
http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/acrobat/en/service/Zmanuals/z131_03.pdf

And this data is using 3'15" for development, not the extended development in the table I have attached.

PE

Tom Taylor · Mar 26, 2010

Photo Engineer said:
And this data is using 3'15" for development, not the extended development in the table I have attached.

PE

According to the Kodak Pub above, it takes almost one pint (330mL) of developer to process one roll of 135-36 without replenishment. If one processed one roll with 330mL, do you think they could process more rolls in the same solution without replenishment by simply extending the development time?

Photo Engineer · Mar 26, 2010

Tom;

Look at the table I published. Firstoff, a US pint is 473 ml. Second, the table shows that 2 rolls of 36 exposure can be run in 1 pint, so that is 4 in one quart. It shows 6 rolls of 36 exp with adjustment in time in 1 pint or 12 rolls in 1 quart. I suggest that you use a little less than 12 rolls though as I said earlier here.

The developer has not changed a bit since it was introduced all of those years ago (70s) but the films have improved and have thinner layers with less silver, so the amounts I posted should work. Kodak's data is more concerned with throw away chemistry though which it was not many years ago. The Jobo drum changed all of that. In fact, a prewet with a Jobo is harder to clear of all water, but a prewet in a SS tank is much easier to clear. So that enters into this situation a bit as does the dump times of the two types of equipment. Also, the Jobo gives more agitation on average and creates more oxidized developer during the development cycle.

All of this must be considered. That is why I am a bit conservative. I know the process too well and I have had too much experience to just discount all of the possible variations. I try to give the best advice I can based on having worked on the process and the film.

PE

Tom Taylor · Mar 26, 2010

That's good to hear PE. But I process C-41 and E-6 with a Jobo and the kodak pub says it takes 330mL to process one roll of 135 without replenishment and "Instead of replenishing the solutions, you can use them until they are exhausted and then discard them. Table 3-3 shows
you the number of rolls you can process before you must
replace the developer."

What do you think?

Tim Gray · Mar 26, 2010

Ok, I'm beginning to wrap my head around this. According the CIS-211, the Kodak pdf for processing in hand tanks, we will get 10 rolls/liter of 135-36 or 120 out of the bleach, fix, and rinse. Without time adjustments, we get about 2-4 rolls/liter of 135-36 or 120 out of the dev, according to Z-131-3, table 3-3, depending on the film type and size. If I read between the lines of CIS-211, I'd get 4 rolls out of a liter with no time adjustments, since they only say use a 500 ml tank, presumably for two 135 rolls, using it one-shot. PE of course supplied us with adjustment times to get about 10 rolls/liter with the developer, which would max out the capacities of the other solutions.

Fortunately Kodak sells developer for $28 for 10 liters. With no time adjustments, this will net about 40 rolls of 135-36. Likewise, the most appropriate Kodak bleach I found was $75 for 5 liters (part 8255549), which would be good for 50 rolls. The fixer is 5 gallons for $9, while the rinse is 10 liters for $10. The fixer and rinse would last more than 50 rolls obviously; the limiting solution is the bleach, both in terms of capacity and cost. It totals up to $122, ignoring shipping and sourcing from multiple suppliers. You'd get 40 rolls out of it one-shot, and 50 with some compensation on the developing times before you hit capacity on the bleach. If I understand it correctly. Of course, if you went with a cheaper bleach (Trebla) and compensated on the times, you could do more for cheaper.

Could you run these chemicals with replenishment in a hand agitated tank? I guess it wouldn't really make much of a difference on the bleach/fix/rinse. Z-131-3 calls for a replenishment rate of 69ml/roll of 135-36, which is about 14 rolls/liter - not too much different from 10 roll/liter. However it would help on the developer, particularly if the LORR stuff is used. 26ml/roll of 135-36 means you would go through your original liter after 38 rolls. I don't know if the LORR stuff is viable for use in small volumes like this though. Any input would be appreciated.

Sounds like the Formulary kit is a reasonable way to go if you just buy some extra developer to get reach the full capacity of the non-developing solutions or compensate times. Still not super cheap though.

Tim Gray · Mar 26, 2010

Also, looking at Kodak's recommendations, if I'm doing this in a small SS tank by hand, I can/should use the SM chemicals. I found SM developer for $8 for 2 liters, and SM bleach for $24 for 2.7 liters. That puts the SM developer as more expensive than the 10 liter LORR developer, but the bleach is about half the cost. Ugh.

Is this all right? Could I get the LORR dev, the SM bleach, and the fix and rinse and be fine? Either using the dev one shot or compensate as PE said.

Photo Engineer · Mar 26, 2010

Tom Taylor said:
That's good to hear PE. But I process C-41 and E-6 with a Jobo and the kodak pub says it takes 330mL to process one roll of 135 without replenishment and "Instead of replenishing the solutions, you can use them until they are exhausted and then discard them. Table 3-3 shows
you the number of rolls you can process before you must
replace the developer."

What do you think?

Tom;

Table 3.3 is for use with 3'15" development time. You equated 330 ml with one pint, but that is not correct. In any event, the times and capacities I gave were for 1 pint of developer or doubled for one quart which is less than 1 liter. Even 330 ml is less than one liter.

In any event, that table shows that 4 rolls can be run through a liter. That is exactly what I have given in my table with no change in time. Now, if you go down to page 7 of the document you refer to, it discusses increasing the time to get back into control, but it does not give specs.

So, the Kodak document is given for single use chemistry, not for a careful operator who conserves his chemistry (Which is what we used to do back in the 70s when things were different!).

So, the bottom line is that if you process and throw away the developer, then use the new tables but if you are a careful and conservative operator then use the table I gave earlier. I have done both and they both work!

I prefer throw away with the Jobo due to the losses involved and the nature of the process. With an SS tank, I do it the other way.

PE

fotch · Mar 26, 2010

PE, how do you control temperature in the SS tank? I have both a Jobo and SS, however, was under the impression that the temperature needs to be held at a vary close range that would be very hard to do in regular tanks.

wruzin · Mar 26, 2010

Hi group ! I just ventured into the realm of C41 processing using Kodak Flexicolor chemistry. I have been using the powdered kits which contain a Blix with some success but I wanted to try a product with separate bleach and fix. The chemistry came yesterday and I mixed up a liter of working solutions and processed some film today. All is well, but I have some questions which have been prompted by discourse on this forum concerning the keeping properties of the Kodak components. I have the Developer/Replentisher, Starter, Fixer Replentisher, SM Bleach, and final rinse. I mixed up one liter amounts of each of these products. Of those items, the developer which comes in three parts A, B, and C, is the most fleeting over time as it comes in contact with air. Someone mentioned that Part C is the most sensitive component, is that true? OK, I have read that some plastic bottles are not air tight as air can pass through them and spoil the developer. Question: How well do the plastic bottles that Kodak uses for it's developer components keep the developer inside the unopened bottles? Also, I have read here on the forum that using an inert gas once the bottles have been opened may help keep the developer potent longer in the opened bottle. I have seen ads for argon used to preserve wine in open bottles. Argon can be purchased in aerosol form for about 9 or 10 dollars a can. Any suggestions or comments about argon being use to keep partially opened bottles of developer? BTW, for those of you who are thinking about ordering Kodak, or other brands of liquid photo chemistry, be aware that the cost of shipping and hazmat fees will most likely be the same or more costly than the products themselves. My shipping costs were a dollar more that the total cost of the chemistry itself. Thanks to all who have been contributors to this forum, you suggestions have been very informative.

Photo Engineer · Mar 26, 2010

fotch said:
PE, how do you control temperature in the SS tank? I have both a Jobo and SS, however, was under the impression that the temperature needs to be held at a vary close range that would be very hard to do in regular tanks.

I have used 3 methods. In one, I set the temp to about 102 and let it drop to about 98 over the 3'15" development time. It works just fine. Temperature averaging, as it is called, is mentioned on the EK web site.

In the other method, I have a small tank just big enough to hold an SS tank. I have a temp control unit on my sink and set it to 100F and let a trickle of water run through it. It then fills my sink and the developer and tank are held at 100F.

In the third method, I just set my Jobo at 38.6 deg C and leave it and the chemistry for about 1 - 2 hours and come back. It is ready to go.

PE

Photo Engineer · Mar 26, 2010

wruzin said:
Hi group ! I just ventured into the realm of C41 processing using Kodak Flexicolor chemistry. I have been using the powdered kits which contain a Blix with some success but I wanted to try a product with separate bleach and fix. The chemistry came yesterday and I mixed up a liter of working solutions and processed some film today. All is well, but I have some questions which have been prompted by discourse on this forum concerning the keeping properties of the Kodak components. I have the Developer/Replentisher, Starter, Fixer Replentisher, SM Bleach, and final rinse. I mixed up one liter amounts of each of these products. Of those items, the developer which comes in three parts A, B, and C, is the most fleeting over time as it comes in contact with air. Someone mentioned that Part C is the most sensitive component, is that true? OK, I have read that some plastic bottles are not air tight as air can pass through them and spoil the developer. Question: How well do the plastic bottles that Kodak uses for it's developer components keep the developer inside the unopened bottles? Also, I have read here on the forum that using an inert gas once the bottles have been opened may help keep the developer potent longer in the opened bottle. I have seen ads for argon used to preserve wine in open bottles. Argon can be purchased in aerosol form for about 9 or 10 dollars a can. Any suggestions or comments about argon being use to keep partially opened bottles of developer? BTW, for those of you who are thinking about ordering Kodak, or other brands of liquid photo chemistry, be aware that the cost of shipping and hazmat fees will most likely be the same or more costly than the products themselves. My shipping costs were a dollar more that the total cost of the chemistry itself. Thanks to all who have been contributors to this forum, you suggestions have been very informative.

The color developer is the only concentrate that is really unstable. It is packed in glass in all of my C41 kits but IDK about some of the newer small machine kits.

Some heavy plastic bottles are sufficient to hold back the air and are sufficient for storage. Kodak has started to use them for some products.

PE

2F/2F · Mar 26, 2010

Checked Samy's Pasadena today. Here is the scoop:

Developer kit to make 10 L working solution is in stock for about $40. Only one left.
Bleach, 2.7 L ready to use is in stock, for $30. About four left.
Fixer, 1 gallon concentrate to make 5 gallons working, is in stock for $7. Only one left.
Stabilizer is in supply in the warehouse, and can be transferred to any retail location, so a whole case does not need to be ordered at this point. About $7 each.

All C-41 items have been moved to special order only status, so the stock currently on the shelves at retail locations or in the warehouse is it, without special ordering.

They also have RA chems in stock on the shelf, including two one-gallon developer kits.

With color chems, it appears that it is best to stock up ahead of time at this point, rather than expecting to find them on shelves. Quite a tragedy!

fotch · Mar 26, 2010

Wruzin, Argon and Nitrogen are the gases that I know of being inert and good for topping off the developer,

2F/2F · Mar 26, 2010

P.S. Flexicolor Final Rinse (the current proper name for the step that used to be called "Stabilizer) is only $2.50 per bottle at B&H, with a minimum order of 12 bottles, and they will ship it, unlike a large number of their Flexicolor products. This is a way better deal than Samy's.

Tom Taylor · Mar 26, 2010

Photo Engineer said:
Tom;

Table 3.3 is for use with 3'15" development time. You equated 330 ml with one pint, but that is not correct. In any event, the times and capacities I gave were for 1 pint of developer or doubled for one quart which is less than 1 liter. Even 330 ml is less than one liter.

In any event, that table shows that 4 rolls can be run through a liter. That is exactly what I have given in my table with no change in time. Now, if you go down to page 7 of the document you refer to, it discusses increasing the time to get back into control, but it does not give specs.

So, the Kodak document is given for single use chemistry, not for a careful operator who conserves his chemistry (Which is what we used to do back in the 70s when things were different!).

So, the bottom line is that if you process and throw away the developer, then use the new tables but if you are a careful and conservative operator then use the table I gave earlier. I have done both and they both work!

I prefer throw away with the Jobo due to the losses involved and the nature of the process. With an SS tank, I do it the other way.

PE

I hear ya PE. As you said earlier, the Jobo introduces more oxidation than the dip and dunk and other methods so that's probably why Kodak says to toss it after one use. At my current C-41 processing cost - $.15/sheet and $.50/roll of 120 - that's fine with me. I can't complain with that!

Also it was nice to learn that the current C-41 developer is the same that been in use for the past 40 years and that you can squeeze more per volume by extending the developing time.

BTW, Kodak E-mailed me the following this morning:

Dear Thomas,

After checking further, the Bleach III replenishers are all scheduled for discontinuence.

The recommended replacement would be Flexicolor Bleach Replenisher NR, which is available in 5 Liter and 5 gallon mixes.
Below is a link to our dealer locator for the US

Thmas

Photo Engineer · Mar 26, 2010

Tom;

Remember to run tests. Don't waste your film with an incorrect process.

PE

wildbill · Mar 26, 2010

2F/2F said:
Checked Samy's Pasadena today. Here is the scoop:

Developer kit to make 10 L working solution is in stock for about $40. Only one left.
Bleach, 2.7 L ready to use is in stock, for $30. About four left.
Fixer, 1 gallon concentrate to make 5 gallons working, is in stock for $7. Only one left.
Stabilizer is in supply in the warehouse, and can be transferred to any retail location, so a whole case does not need to be ordered at this point. About $7 each.

All C-41 items have been moved to special order only status, so the stock currently on the shelves at retail locations or in the warehouse is it, without special ordering.

They also have RA chems in stock on the shelf, including two one-gallon developer kits.

With color chems, it appears that it is best to stock up ahead of time at this point, rather than expecting to find them on shelves. Quite a tragedy!

Thanks for looking Keith.
Like much of the information I've gotten in trying to find the chemicals, your inventory is quite different than what I was told they had when I called them this morning. The items and prices I got from a sales associate are quite different than yours. I don't know if she was looking at a computer screen or the shelf. I may go there in the morning to check it out.

If kodak put the letter D in front of their chemicals instead of C, they'd be selling lots more of it

wruzin · Mar 27, 2010

Addendum to previous posting: I purchased my Flexicolor chemistry from Pakor, Inc ( was a one time called Pako and has been in business for many years in the Twins Cities area ). They have a rather extensive listing of Kodak, Fuji and Trebla chemistry on their website. They shipped UPS COD. Beware, shipping costs were more than the chemistry costs, but I suspect shipping and hazmat cost will be similar no matter where you buy the chemistry by mail order or over the net. Time from order to receipt of goods was one week. Costs of chemistry breakdown: 5 gals of Developer/Replintisher ( four 5 gal kits in a box, 20 gallons in all) $23.10; Kodak Developer Starter 1 quart bottle which makes almost a lifetime supply of starter solution, $4.50 ; Kodak Fixer Replentisher came in a box with 4, 1 gallon bottles, each makes 5 gallons of working fixer or 20 gallons of fixer total, $26.64; Kodak SM Bleach in two 2.2 liter bottles used straight from the bottle, no mixing needed, $60.20; Kodak Final Rinse in one bottle which mixes to 12.5 gallons, $12.01 So, expense seems reasonable except for the shipping costs, which are outrageous.

2F/2F · Mar 28, 2010

wildbill said:
Thanks for looking Keith.
Like much of the information I've gotten in trying to find the chemicals, your inventory is quite different than what I was told they had when I called them this morning. The items and prices I got from a sales associate are quite different than yours. I don't know if she was looking at a computer screen or the shelf. I may go there in the morning to check it out.

If kodak put the letter D in front of their chemicals instead of C, they'd be selling lots more of it

No problem. I could literally walk there.

I made a mistake in that I switched the prices of the developer and the bleach. The developer kit is around 30 bucks, and the bleach is around 40.

wildbill · Mar 28, 2010

Well, I managed to get to Samy's in Pasadena and had a look. I picked up the only developer they had, a LORR 10L a,b,c pack cat#8121857 $26.95 a gallon of SM bleach cat#8940801 $36.95 and a gallon of fixer cat#1693837 $6.99. They're getting some final rinse for me from the warehouse in a couple days. A customer saw me carrying the chemicals on the way out and asked "Still processing film, huh?" and I replied "what the f*ck else am I gonna do with it?" No, I was nicer than that.

I plan to use this stuff in my jobo, is this LORR mixture okay? Low Rate of Replenishment for low volumes of film. Do I need to use starter Cat # 8485153 with this? I'm not clear on these directions. Samy's didn't have it and the salesman didn't know if I needed it or not.

Well, a search here found my answer. I do need lorr developer starter. Now another search is on. Maybe I'll get all the stuff I need before Christmas!

Kodak C41 chemicals and availability

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