Kodak C41 chemicals and availability

Tom Taylor · Mar 24, 2010

Read it again.

The Developer capacity is 3 rolls of 120 and the Bleach capacity is 10 rolls per liter. You can reuse the bleach but must discard the developer after one use. Also, the shelf life of the bleach once mixed/used is 8 weeks. It's not necessary to use a stoppered bottle with the bleach as it needs air.

I must admitt Kodak's C-41 chemistry and availability is awfully confusing. I E-mailed them regaring the availability for Bleach III.

BTW, the pub you posted is not for the SM kit.

Photo Engineer · Mar 24, 2010

Bleach III will keep almost forever before use. The fix will last for a few months before use. These are both after dilution to working strength. For developer quantities, use the amount specified by your tank manufacturer for each roll size and number of rolls.

Their developer comes packed in 4 containers with instructions. Use them to make 1 Liter of working strength developer. The kit includes starter in one of the 4 containers of developer concentrates.

PE

wildbill · Mar 24, 2010

As Tom also said, page 9 of the Flexicolor C-41 deve#983514.pdf states that 3 rolls of 120 or 3 sheets of 8x10 can be processed before you must replace the developer. I am interested in doing my own c41 as I do E-6 and b+w for 3 reasons: control, convenience, and COST. While this kit is an option, it would be cheaper for me to take my film to the lab even at $8.50/sheet. Compare that to the kodak 5L E-6 kit which saves $$$$$$ money. Am I missing something?

Photo Engineer · Mar 24, 2010

If these 1 L kits do not sell, then I doubt if there will be any follow on products like it. It is expensive to do this so you probably will never see a 5 L kit or a 5 L stand alone developer or anything else that you seem to suddenly want.

Before, it seemed that everyone would be happy if they could just get any C41 in small quantity, and now everyone wants a kit tailored to their wants or needs. Well, you have to test the water first if you are developing this type of product. You cannot just jump in with a whole catalog of products.

The chemistry is expensive and hard to get. If these sit on the shelf, then the Formulary loses out, if not then maybe there might be more products like it. IDK.

PE

fotch · Mar 24, 2010

While those that expressed in interest in smaller quantities, and I am one of them, this does not mean "Cost is no object".

If its 3 rolls of film per kit, and the in the door cost is $43, that means $14+ per roll. I hope that is wrong info. It would not be a practical solution for me.

Before doing this, was there any thought to the capacity of kit?

I am grateful to PF for this solution and only hope its affordable for me.

Keeping my fingers crossed.

frobozz · Mar 24, 2010

If the other parts last a lot longer than the developer, can't you just keep buying more of the developer to amortize your money out of the rest of the kit cost? I'm assuming PF would therefore sell separate developer for that purpose. Then over the life of the entire kit (plus additional developer), your costs would be far less than $14 per roll.

(Or do I not understand how that works, since I've never actually done color processing personally?)

Duncan

fotch · Mar 24, 2010

I would probably buy 2 kits or more to spread the shipping cost out. But, if it is only 3 rolls per kit, (and I hope it is lot more), even with free shipping, its not for me.

I don't understand, (my stupidity), why finding out the capacity is so hard, and have had such defensive post.

I would think, as any business should, what the product offers in all areas, before doing this.

Is it attractively (or competitively) priced (per roll)? Or, if you could not process color film with any other kit or labs no longer offered processing anymore, maybe the cost per roll is not an issue.

I apologize if I seem ungrateful, or seem critical. Like asking how many miles to the gallon or what the interest rate is, seemed like such a logical question.

Photo Engineer · Mar 24, 2010

Fotch;

With all due respect, you cannot make a C41 kit that has higher capacity per unit volume than already exists. Once you look at the Kodak figures, they are fixed values for ALL kits that do C41 properly and that are not replenished.

That said, you can do 10 rolls of 35mm / 20 exposure per half liter (pint or 473 ml actually) reading from a real C41 kit instruction. This is provided you adjust time properly upwards for every roll.

So, there must be someone misunderstanding the "rules" somewhere. Personally, I would only do 10 rolls or less per liter myself just for quality concerns, but Kodak says 20 rolls per liter with time adjustments.

I just read this from one of the several C41 kit sheets I have here.

PE

fotch · Mar 24, 2010

Thank PE, that sounds better. So, 10 rolls of 36x should be OK.

I did download the PDF at the PF site and on page 3-5, they are showing 4 rolls per liter. That did not sound right and in reading other Kodak PDF's about C-41, its clear that they have many versions.

With shipping of 2 or more kits, its at least withing range, for me.

Again, thank you for the info.

thisismyname09 · Mar 24, 2010

I wonder if it's possible to dilute the developer (since it's used one-shot anyway) and extend development time for a little more capacity.

I'd buy this if they started selling the developer separate, so I can use the bleach/fix/etc. from the kit beyond the three rolls dictated by the developer. Or maybe if they started selling the replenisher as well.

Photo Engineer · Mar 24, 2010

Well, it is probably 5 rolls per liter of 35mm without time adjustment as it says here: http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/acrobat/en/service/Zmanuals/z131_03.pdf

However, my sheet gives time adjustments so here it is. I have two sheets that differ slightly. This one is a bit more conservative. I would be even more conservative.

Enjoy. These are official unreplenished values for tank and tube. I have used these since the 70s.

PE

2F/2F · Mar 24, 2010

I get mine at Freestyle or Samy's. The 1 gallon kit is no longer made, however.

As for the "Freestyle won't touch Kodak chemicals" statement....Tons of Kodak chemicals, right on the shelves! That is where I get my E-6 kits. Samy's definitely has the C-41 kits. If not L.A., then Pasadena, and if not Pasadena, then Santa Barbara (which has the best analog selection of all Samy's locations, because of Brooks). Samy's will definitely special order Kodak color chems as well. I have special ordered E-6 5 L kits this way.

Bruce Watson · Mar 24, 2010

Photo Engineer said:
So, don't knock it. Seems to me you all got what you wanted.

Who's knocking it? I'm all for it. I just asking questions because I want to know that it's going to do what I think it's going to do. And it seems that it is.

I'm using a Jobo with a 3010 drum, 10 5x4 sheets at a time. If I read the Kodak documentation correctly, a liter is good for 10 10x8 sheets, so it should be good for 40 5x4 sheets. That's 4 runs at 250ml per run. If that's true, then what more could a LF c-41 photographer want?

The only thing I have to be sure of is hitting the temperature on the nail head. My CPP-2 seems to be off about 0.7C (a displayed value of 20C seems to be in reality 20.7C).

What is the visual effect of being a little high or a little low in temperature? I'm thinking too high a temp would shift colors toward blue maybe, while too low a temp would shift colors toward yellow? I'll need a densitometer and test strips to be sure no doubt.

Photo Engineer · Mar 24, 2010

Bruce, I will not hazard a guess as to the capacity of the developer for sheet film. You see, you can process the equivalent of more than 2 rolls of 35mm in a tank at one time and this implies that the time must be adjusted in the very first process. This is why I do smaller batches of sheet films and use the Jobo recommendations. I do 8 sheets in one run using a 2000 series tank and the normal amount of developer for that tank.

Over development makes the negative more yellow and underdevelopment makes it more blue. This is true of time and temp, but they also influence fog and contrast. That is a generalization.

PE

wildbill · Mar 24, 2010

2F/2F said:
I get mine at Freestyle or Samy's. The 1 gallon kit is no longer made, however.

As for the "Freestyle won't touch Kodak chemicals" statement....Tons of Kodak chemicals, right on the shelves! That is where I get my E-6 kits. Samy's definitely has the C-41 kits. If not L.A., then Pasadena, and if not Pasadena, then Santa Barbara (which has the best analog selection of all Samy's locations, because of Brooks). Samy's will definitely special order Kodak color chems as well. I have special ordered E-6 5 L kits this way.

Keith, I was referring to c41 chemicals. And I've been in the store plenty of times. I'm not sure the last time you've bought a kodak 5L e-6 kit but they don't carry those either. That's only based on calling and speaking with the people in the back and searching the shelves myself.

What c-41 kit? If there is a kodak c-41 kit, what's the product number? The only way I can get c-41 chemicals (no kits) through Samy's is a special order and that requires I buy a lot including 16 bottles of final rinse! That's coming from Juan in Pasadena last week. I've yet to get details about the remaining chemicals but it's going to be $$$$$. I don't shoot that much color neg so this all may not be worth it.

Photo Engineer · Mar 24, 2010

Bill;

Then try the Formulary kit, which is a repackaged Kodak kit.

PE

2F/2F · Mar 24, 2010

wildbill said:
Keith, I was referring to c41 chemicals. And I've been in the store plenty of times. I'm not sure the last time you've bought a kodak 5L e-6 kit but they don't carry those either. That's only based on calling and speaking with the people in the back and searching the shelves myself.

What c-41 kit? If there is a kodak c-41 kit, what's the product number? The only way I can get c-41 chemicals (no kits) through Samy's is a special order and that requires I buy a lot including 16 bottles of final rinse! That's coming from Juan in Pasadena last week. I've yet to get details about the remaining chemicals but it's going to be $$$$$. I don't shoot that much color neg so this all may not be worth it.

I will check the shelf this evening at Samy's Pasadena for Kodak C-41 Flexicolor chemistry. Perhaps they are out of final rinse, but developer, bleach, and fixer were there last week. It is a 10 L developer kit, which is easily sectioned up. (I mix 2 L at a time.) I have never purchased an entire C-41 "kit" from Kodak, so I do not know if they exist. Just a three-part developer kit, and separate bleach, fixer, and final rinse (previously called stabilizer).

The last time I bought Kodak E-6 off the shelf at Freestyle was perhaps 3 or 4 months ago, and I ordered two kits from Samy's once ($109 after tax). I always got my Kodak C-41 at Samy's (most recently, Pasadena, and Fairfax before that).

Buying 16 bottles of final rinse is really not all too expensive, and the stuff only lasts 8 weeks once mixed, so you will eventually use it.

If you don't shoot much color neg, home processing is probably not worth the mild savings you will get doing small quantities. The real economy comes with a high volume of use. I get at least 40 rolls and/or 80 4x5 sheets (almost always a mix) out of every gallon of C-41 chems that I mix up, or else I don't bother doing it.

If you need a gallon kit just to get you through a specific project, let me know. I have about a dozen that I stockpiled on hearing of their discontinuance. I also have plenty of the old stabilizer, if you are using older films that require it.

wildbill · Mar 24, 2010

2F/2F said:
I get mine at Freestyle or Samy's. The 1 gallon kit is no longer made, however.

As for the "Freestyle won't touch Kodak chemicals" statement....Tons of Kodak chemicals, right on the shelves! That is where I get my E-6 kits. Samy's definitely has the C-41 kits. If not L.A., then Pasadena, and if not Pasadena, then Santa Barbara (which has the best analog selection of all Samy's locations, because of Brooks). Samy's will definitely special order Kodak color chems as well. I have special ordered E-6 5 L kits this way.

Keith, I was referring to c41 chemicals. And I've been in the store plenty of times. I'm not sure the last time you've bought a kodak 5L e-6 kit but they don't carry those either. That's only based on calling and speaking with the people in the back and searching the shelves myself.

What c-41 kit? If there is a kodak c-41 kit, what's the product number? The only way I can get c-41 chemicals (no kits) through Samy's is a special order and that requires I buy a lot including 16 bottles of final rinse! That's coming from Juan in Pasadena last week. I've yet to get details about the remaining chemicals but it's going to be $$$$$. I don't shoot that much color neg so this all may not be worth it.

Photo Engineer · Mar 25, 2010

Several people are still raising issues about the capacity of the developer. I posted this information on page 4 of this thread in post #39 for you all. This is an official Kodak document. The process there does not take into account the RA bleach and fix used today in minilabs so the process I posted is more nearly like the home process and should be used.

PE

Tom Taylor · Mar 25, 2010

Kodak makes a 5-Gallon -19 liter C-41 Developer Replenisher Kit which you can buy for $33. 19 liters of replenisher will make ~22 liters of working tank solution. 22L of tank solution will process, as PE pointed out above, 220 sheets of 4x5 (~ 15 centsUS/sheet) or 66 rolls of 120 (~50 centsUS/roll).

Does anyone know if this kit is slated to be discontinued? I hit the panic button yesterday and purchased one so I now have two unopened kits.

fotch · Mar 25, 2010

Post #39: Well, it is probably 5 rolls per liter of 35mm without time adjustment

Post #36: you can do 10 rolls of 35mm / 20 exposure per half liter (pint or 473 ml actually) reading from a real C41 kit instruction. This is provided you adjust time properly upwards for every roll.

So, there must be someone misunderstanding the "rules" somewhere. Personally, I would only do 10 rolls or less per liter myself just for quality concerns, but Kodak says 20 rolls per liter with time adjustments.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know I was confused. I didn't realize that Post #36 was reusing it. I thought that was not the preferred method. Then post #39, back to a smaller number. Of course, that is with 1 time use.

Bottom line: So, with no reuse, which is the way I have always used it the past, it may be 5 rolls. If one reuses and adjust the time, its 10 rolls.

I think I got it now. Whew, that was harder than the developing will be, Its doable for me and I will be ordering some. Maybe reuse will be acceptable.

Thank you PE, for you help in this.

Photo Engineer · Mar 25, 2010

Reread my two posts.

It is 16 rolls of 35mm 20 exp per liter in the second post. In the earlier post I refer to a less conservative publication and changed my reference to a more conservative reference. The earlier post used a Kodak document which said 20 rolls per liter. I do not recommend this higher value. And note that the figures refer to use of 1 pint of developer.

I myself am more conservative. I suggest about 8 rolls to 14 or 16 rolls / liter. And, IMHO at 14 or 16 rolls, I believe that there will be a small sacrifice in quality. I have never pushed it that far though, due to my conservative nature in these matters.

The figures are from an official C41 dataguide by Kodak and still hold true for the developer in any case.

PE

mtjade2007 · Mar 25, 2010

Chemicals can be fairly cheap when buying in bulk. Considering the time and effort putting into each roll of film at the time it was shot I would rather be more conservative than trying to save a dollar or two for each roll of film processed.

The way to save money in chemicals is to buy bulk. C-41 chemicals unused unopened will remain good for 2 - 3 years easily. I bought C-41 LORR developer replenisher in bulk. That's what was available from a wholesale supplier. A bottle of LORR starter was about $8 and will last for years. Each time I mixed and make 10 liters of developer. I used it up in about 2 - 3 weeks. By doing this I can be as conservative as I want in terms of developer capacity (number of rolls per liter). It is still very economical and the joy of turning out top quality negatives is beyond imagination. Don't try to cut corners in using chemicals. If I remember the cost correctly it is about $2.50 per liter of developer.

I believe even for non professionals smaller sized bulk chemicals will become the trend. It is more economical for Kodak to produce and cheaper for consumers to buy too. Anything smaller than 5 liters is just too small. The LORR developer replenisher I get makes 4x10 liters. It costs less than $100.

Tim Gray · Mar 25, 2010

From my investigations, it was the bleach that was the pain in the butt to get. I'm ok with the prices and sizes of the rest of the Kodak C-41 chemicals. I've not seen the bleach for sale anywhere. Just $300 of bleach part A or something like it.

mtjade2007 · Mar 25, 2010

Well, again you will have to look for photochemical suppliers that supply chemicals to mini labs. A friend who once own a mini lab took me to such a supplier in Riverside Southern California. I picked up several ready mixed (by Kodak) gallon sized C-41RA bleach for something like less than $30 each. So far after several years I have only consumed a little more than 1 gallon of it. Since I was taken to there I don't remember the name of the supplier and exactly where it is located any more. I live in Northern California so I won't go there any more anyway. I have since then switched to Chang's Photo Supply which has a warehouse in Hayward in the Bay Area. So I don't need to go to those retail places any more to only find chemicals there extremely expensive and mostly not available anyway.

It is unfortunate that photo chemical supplies in retail stores are nearly non existent today except in a few places in large cities such as New York. This causes a huge impact to some people who love films still. I don't think Kodak is to blame for creating this situation. It is hazmat requirement in shipping that is causing the retail of small packages of photochemicals to disappear. I naturally have to look up wholesellers. Luckily I found one in my area.

Kodak C41 chemicals and availability

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