Kodak Axes Digicams, but keeps film

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The capital cost to buy into film has dropped, but the operational costs have risen substantially, and will continue to do so.

I have lots of older film catalogs and invoices from my film orders from 10, 12, 15, 20 years ago.
In most cases I pay today less than 10 or 15 years before, if I consider inflation.
Shooting film has never been so cheap as today, at least here in my country.

CN film for only 85 Cent, C-41 development for 85 Cent, RA-4 prints for 1 Cent. If you want to go cheap, it's possible (well, I don't do it, but that is not the question).
It was significantly more expensive a decade ago.

Best regards,
Henning
 

Aristophanes

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I am aware of that. Friends of mine are running labs. Successfully, in 2012. They've been clever and extended their services. New film and processing options, excellent mail order services nationwide / europewide.

In Germany and other European countries the number of professional labs is still quite high and stable for the last years. No problems at all here to get quality processing.
Concerning the whole film market consumers have always been the most important user group of film. 80 - 90% of the film was shot by consumers, not by pros in the glory days of film.
Clear indication that there is still a huge market for consumer film: I can buy consumer CN film at nearly "every corner of the street" here in Europe, because all drug store chains sell it. At extremely low prices: 85 - 90 Cent per film.
Such extremely low prices are only possible if there is enough volume. The demand is there, that is the reason why this film is offered.

Let's change the view a little bit:
Europe is the biggest market for photofilm. How is film development organised in most European countries:

1. Drug store chains are offering film and development. Both is very cheap, with the house brand films and some chains extremely cheap, with film 85 cent and development only 85 cent as well. Films are collected in the stores and sent to big labs, e.g. labs belonging to the big European photofinishers CeWe or Fuji Eurocolor.
After two days you have your developed film and prints back. You can also choose between cheap, lower quality prints ( 1 Cent for 9x13cm) and a bit more expensive and higher quality prints. You can order CN, E6 and BW.
Even very small towns have at least one drug store.
So getting your films developed based on local shops is not a problem.

2. You can get your film developed at local photo shops. These shops either send the films to CeWe or Fuji Eurocolor, or to specialised medium sized labs.
Some photo shops operate a mini lab and offer in-house service.

3. In bigger cities there are pro labs. Lots of pro labs offer mail ordering.
Mail order is very easy for example in Germany. The national postal service ("Deutsche Post") is even offering different special envelope types for the labs if they want, so that labs can offer their customers dedicated services. And of course sending in standard envelopes or packages is no problem at all. Just choose what you think fits best.
So, if you want your films be developed, just put them in an envelope, go some hundred meters to the next mailbox and send it to your lab. Two days later you have your developed films back.
It is very convenient, fast, reliable and cost efficient. Driving to a local lab is costing fuel, parking charge and time. In most cases it is more expensive than using mail order.

When reading about this obsession about local pro labs and mini labs some North Americans seem to have Europeans shake their heads.
Even in the glory days of film in Europe the majority of films has not been developed by these types of labs.
For the long term survival it is not necessary that each small town has its own local lab. A more centralised infrastructure is working.

There are great chances for professional labs in the future, which adopt to the new film market: Offering attractive mail order services nationwide, expand the product programme, do marketing for film and their services.
I have three pro labs in my city. Nevertheless I mostly do mail order sending my films 500 km away. Because there is a lab offering more value for me.

Best regards,
Henning

Total opposite of Canada. Almost all totally gone. 99% of pros have gone digital. Most drugstore and supermarket chains carry no film and process none or even forward it on through the Fuji network. Almost all local labs be they consumer or pro have disappeared. All this has happened when the costs have swung decisively in favour of the $C which is at record highs.

The same thing is happening across swathes of the US and Japan and other parts of Asia. There are regional differences, but the trend is clear. Maybe Europe is different, but the continued loss of North American and Asian demand will throw European prices through the roof; not something many economies in Europe are able to absorb.

One major difference is that North American homes have PC's and have a much younger demographic, so accommodating digital is relatively easy. One local drugstore manager here told me when they dropped film services it angered a few older people, and that's it. They could not keep processing going for 30 old people in a market of 500,000.

Mail order services are around in N.A., but very expensive compared to digital. And most people want scanning, not printing. Kodak is on the record as saying that:

http://www.bjp-online.com/british-j...nd-a/1735570/kodak-there-real-resurgence-film

I would not characterize the photographic film market as "huge" anymore. Kodak's own numbers show it has fallen by well over 90% and that holds relatively true because throughout it all Kodak has easily still been the major supplier of film emulsions worldwide. If it was Kodak's share price would not have fallen so much. Form the time Kodak was interviewed by the BJP to now the FPEG group lost over $220 million in revenues and they predict more to come.
 

T-grain

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film in Europe is cheap, no doubt

I agree with you, Henning, also for me, shooting film has never been cheaper than today. i can get a roll for about 85 cents at the drugstore (the quality is comparable to gold/superia). I notice there are quite a number of bags with prints waiting for customers there, at any time I go there! In a town of 20.000 people! But even when using slide film, the costs are reasonable. I repeat this over and over at our camera club, but few of them actually believe it-the few ones still using film :sad:

Maybe Europe has another advantage (in terms of film), compared to America-people are not consumistic so they do not hurry when a shop opens to get the latest gadget like an iPhone, iPad.....and reject the "old" technology at such a massive scale
Aristophanes-your statement about the lack of PCs in Europe is simply ridiculous, sorry-there are even too many, in every single household, from West to East:smile: One my relative from Toronto told me lately (when he was in visit) that yes, there is some problem to get the film processed, but even when he was in a downtown shop and he was looking to buy a film 5-pack (with processing and prints included) for a very low price, the salesman tried to persuade him at every cost to get the latest digicam instead
So inevitably, the market will adapt to what consumers demand. But how cosumers can be (and they are) manipulated by the marketing people is another story.....
 
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Henning had no data apart Lomo's global job postings for shop help and some gross and out-of-date CIPA stats. When pressed he couldn't really document his arguments with much beyond anecdotes. Holgas and Dianas aren't the answer to falling demand for film.

Sorry my dear, wrong.
You don't know how market research works. 98% of the data is never published, because publishing will hurt those who need the data.
If a company needs data they contact specialised market research companies and negotiate the terms. What data will be needed, and if it is possible to generate the data.
Market research is expensive, the work is difficult. Therefore you have to pay a lot for good market research. And the company who has ordered the data and payed for it will be pissed if the research company will publish the sensible data to others who haven't paid for it.

You want more data? No problem at all! Send me a pm, give me your name and address and I will tell you which company can work for you. But be prepared to have enough money to pay them for their work!

The CIPA numbers: I've written that at least some reports are still available online at the photoscala archives. If you are too lazy to look at, it's your problem.

I had written down the numbers of the CIPA reports at the time they were published.
Here is the most important part (in all following numbers of compact film cameras the SUCs are not included!):

Film camera sales in 2001:
SLRs: 3,634,000
Compact Cams: 27,600,000

2002:
SLRs: 3,390,000
Compact: 24,500,000

2003:
SLRs: 2,346,000
Compact: 16,296,000

2004:
SLRs: 1,175,000
Compact: 10,055,000

2005:
SLRs: 543,000
Compact: 5,380,000

2006:
SLRs: 230,000
Compact:1,636,000

2007:
700,000 cameras in total, SLRs and compact, there was no differentiation made anymore.

So, in this period from 2001 to 2007 more than 95 million film cameras were sold by member companies of the CIPA. Not all film camera manufacturers are members of the CIPA, therefore the total number of film cameras sold was even higher.

If you include the year 2000, even if you put the same production number as in 2001, than you reach more than 120 million film cameras sold in this "digital decade".

And you have the millions of cameras produced before. In 1996, when APS was introduced, in a special photo edition of GEO magazine the total number of working cameras at that time was given with 630 millions worldwide.

That is the reason why we will not see a lack of film cameras during the next decades. Simply too much cameras around.

Best regards,
Henning
 
OP
OP

CGW

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Concerning the whole film market consumers have always been the most important user group of film. 80 - 90% of the film was shot by consumers, not by pros in the glory days of film.

This was never the case in the huge N. American market. Pro labs collapsed when pros stopped shooting film(get it?) and consumer mini-labs vanished when consumers stopped shooting film. Denying this is like denying gravity.

No news with the old CIPA data.

Sorry my dear, wrong.
You don't know how market research works. 98% of the data is never published, because publishing will hurt those who need the data.
If a company needs data they contact specialised market research companies and negotiate the terms. What data will be needed, and if it is possible to generate the data.
Market research is expensive, the work is difficult. Therefore you have to pay a lot for good market research. And the company who has ordered the data and payed for it will be pissed if the research company will publish the sensible data to others who haven't paid for it.


How convenient, Henning. Just more "personal" facts behind your "personal" opinions. Utterly incredible.
 
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The same thing is happening across swathes of the US and Japan and other parts of Asia.

In Japan the situation for film is still very good, mostly even better than in Europe. You can get still overnight developing of E6 in Tokyo for example.
I've been in China at a time when digital here in Europe was already very popular.
There I could get film at every corner of the street, Lucky, Kodak, Fuji.
The chinese shot film like hell, photography in general is very popular there.
There is a reason why China can afford two own film manufacturers (Lucky, Shanghai) who are producing mainly for the local market.
The film cameras used were often Chinese brands even I as a camera junkie has never heard of (you can add millions of Chinese cameras to the CIPA numbers I've reported).
In the photo shops you could buy everything you want, even the most expensive Japanese cameras.

A niche market for film in China will probably be bigger than a film mass market in countries with a population size like Canada.

If 99% of all photographers are using digital, and only 1% film, will be that the end of film?
Currently about 1,5 billion people worldwide are taking photographs. This number is significantly increasing from year to year bacause of the economic growth in the newly industrialised countries.
1% of 1,5 billion are 15 millions. A tiny niche compared to the whole market, in relative terms.
But in absolute terms still a mass market.
But even this 1% is not guaranteed, markets are not falling from the sky, they have to be developed.
Marketing for film is the major factor for the survival of film.
Marketing by the manufacturers, by the distributors, the labs, and the film photographers.
That is what is absolutely needed.
We are sitting all in one boat.

Best regards,
Henning
 
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keithwms

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Thanks for the good information and patience, Henning.

One thing that we should probably come to terms with is the benefit of narrowing the number of films in production. This will be an uncomfortable question for some of us, but: do we really need an ISO 25, 50, 100, 400, and 3200 b&w films, and several of those with different grain types? And from different manufacturers?

Perhaps it's time to start advocating more versatile films and spend less time complaining about the loss of niche products. If we aim to boost production of one type of film to meet Ilford's 8000 m^2 number, we should take a hard look at what films can realistically make those targets. It'll cause some gnashing of teeth but that's where we are.
 
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PKM-25

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Thanks for the good information and patience, Henning.

Agree, Keith, off topic, I just got my invite for Look3 in June, you going?
 

DREW WILEY

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Keith - Kodak has been doing exactly that right along - trimming the film selection but making each remaining film
more versatile. And if film manufacturing in general is going to retain a financial incentive for the survivors, then
more dollars to less competitors is inevitable. I personally look at this whole scaling down of Kodak as probably a
good thing for film in the long run, provided Kodak doesn't keep tripping over their own feet. Around here- which is a techie campus town if ever there was one - films sales are processing are doing very well, and are paralleling digital. I don't know how long the Holga fad will last, but overall, you can walk right into the camera
store and buy 8x10 Ilford sheet film, Kodak and Fuji 4X5, all kinds of roll and 35mm film, get it sent out for processing if needed, and buy your digital gear right at the same counter. This is ground zero for digital developement; but out on the trails everyone recognizes what a view camera is, thinks this is how "real" photography is still done, wants to look thru the groundglass, and wishes they had a "real darkroom" too. Maybe that's from the legacy of the West Coast school of photography, or maybe because so many of these techies think the grass is greener on the other side of the fence and differentiate photographic recreation from slavery to a keyboard and mouse in the work week (I certainly do). But as I noted in a couple of posts already, at the lab level film and digital are coexisting quite comfortably. It's just take some ingenuity. But that is exactly what this area is known for.
 

PKM-25

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Hmm sounds nice, you are welcome to stay at my place in C'ville. In fact I and friends here could probably host quite a few apuggers.

I'll PM you some details, I think you are gonna like this...;-)
 

keithwms

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It's just take some ingenuity. But that is exactly what this area is known for.

Amen to that. We just need to first assume that there is a workable solution and then work towards finding it. That is the approach of the successful problem solver. In contrast, some will simply throw up their hands and assume there is no solution unless somebody produces it right in front of them.

Regarding coexistence with "other" technologies, I agree completely, and relatively minor steps like scan-friendly maskless C41 and better chromogenic materials etc. could go a long way. But my comments on those topics are usually disregarded as not being in favor of 'traditional' film. As if there ever were one film process accepted by all great artists :whistling:

Truth be told though, I'd be happy with just about any b&w pan and any c41 film on the market. I would sob over the demise of E6 but probably survive it. Got enough stashed for 5 years anyway :wink:
 
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tomalophicon

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Keith,
Have you had experience with maskless films in the darkroom?
I have not. But I'd be interested to know how it works. I have got some slide film in holders that I'll be cross-processing.
Tom.
 

keithwms

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Keith,
Have you had experience with maskless films in the darkroom?
I have not. But I'd be interested to know how it works. I have got some slide film in holders that I'll be cross-processing.
Tom.

Tom, I use them only for the other technique, so far, and for a little project involving negative color for which I didn't want the mask to obscure the colours. If I did use them in the darkroom, I guess I'd first shoot myself a blank c41 frame on a normal (masked) film and use that as a filter.

The Rollei CN was a bit disappointing to me, to be honest. Rather grainy for its speed. But very cool colours and I sure wish there were other maskless films like it. They'd make very nice b&w films, actually.

Please try it!
 

tomalophicon

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Thanks Keith. That's a good idea about the blank organge frame. I have a few of those around thanks to dodgy cameras.

I've heard that Rollei film is an Agfa aerial film. I'd be keen to try it in the enlarger in case that's all we've got later on!
 

keithwms

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I would love to have a good stock of it in aerial roll form e.g. 70mm or 5" or even 9.5". I guess I didn't write to the right people though, I haven't gotten any response on my request for prices, despite seeing the stuff (70mm at least) in their catalogue.
 

Athiril

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Thanks Keith. That's a good idea about the blank organge frame. I have a few of those around thanks to dodgy cameras.

I've heard that Rollei film is an Agfa aerial film. I'd be keen to try it in the enlarger in case that's all we've got later on!

Be sure to give the Rollei 80s a go.
 

Aristophanes

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If 99% of all photographers are using digital, and only 1% film, will be that the end of film?
Currently about 1,5 billion people worldwide are taking photographs. This number is significantly increasing from year to year bacause of the economic growth in the newly industrialised countries.
1% of 1,5 billion are 15 millions. A tiny niche compared to the whole market, in relative terms.
But in absolute terms still a mass market.
But even this 1% is not guaranteed, markets are not falling from the sky, they have to be developed.
Marketing for film is the major factor for the survival of film.
Marketing by the manufacturers, by the distributors, the labs, and the film photographers.
That is what is absolutely needed.
We are sitting all in one boat.

Best regards,
Henning

False assumption

You're assuming an either/or scenario. You have to factor in that people with film cameras are also likely to have digital. In fact, digital camera sales have by far been strongest to those prosumers who have since left their higher-end film cameras on the shelf. Those that still shoot film also shoot digital on average. They are, for the most part, photography enthusiasts. This has happened right inside companies like Nikon.

15 million consumers would have to therefore pretty much totally abandon all digital or shoot twice as often to make up the difference in absolutes as you are concluding.

You'e also not factoring in the price. As you dwindle to 15 million, you have less economy of scale for raw material purchases and, especially distribution. Film is still a perishable product and mail order adds per unit costs. Right now prices are set for consumption of 10's if not 100's of millions of users. Now factor in the near total loss of motion picture film consumption and the problem is magnified 10x. MP film underwrote the economy of scale along which every other product line and some suppliers benefitted. Kodak drive down everyone else's raw material prices. If you lose Kodak's buying power (and Fuji's) on your way to 15 million shooters only, then prices have to rise. Maybe not proportionately, but quite a lot. That will lose even more customers as the thrift cycle kicks in.

In other words, fewer film shooters will have to shoot more film at higher prices to make up the difference in productive capacity. Running your numbers compared to what PE has said about Kodak's Rochester output alone, that plant could not run for more than a couple of weeks/year to supply this market, to the exclusion of all other suppliers! And we are talking maybe 3 kinds/ISO's of colour neg 2 B&W and no E6. The over-capacity in the industry would require carnage in consolidation.

Kodak has no marketing for film. They've pulled all of it because it was like pushing on a string. As much as they advertised, they still lost customers. Lomo does a better job, but over-priced plastic cameras with lo-fi, no focus plastic lenses never made a dent in sales in the 50 years they've been around, what makes them suddenly market shakers now? I have Lomo product and it's fine, but it does not encourage mass shooting of film like an AF compact does. that is no substitute product cycle.

Your numbers on the film cameras is right and wrong. I'll take your word there are that many. But so what? The vast majority of those keen analog buyers dumped them for digital. It is false to assume they will be recycled into the consumer mainstream. Just because eBay and Craigslist exist doesn't mean that all these items go back into circulation. I see ad after ad locally for people advertising their analog gear because they have"moved to digital", and the vast majority of the product is lower end junk, never destined to sell. And even with those ads, the bulk of product probably still sits in storage or have gone to the garbage.

Not to mention that almost total loss of local repair shops. The cost to do a minor repair + shipping will exceed the costs of a "free" camera now. And there are precious few repair shops available. As film product falls off the 7 year Uniform Commercial Code supply chain, replacement parts are the only options. It's a salvage market.

A more critical point is: camera manufacturers simply stopped manufacture of analog product in any significant numbers. CIPA even stopped measuring 5 years ago. In absolute terms, the market is not so "mass" as to be measured by the primary statistical generator in the industry.

Customers weren't buying them because film was not available (it was) and not entirely because of price (it's a sunk cost, but rising now), but because they preferred digital convenience and quality. People did not get digital cameras because they wanted to shoot more often; they got digital cameras to replace their film ones. There is zero evidence that this then created a surplus of cameras on the market drawing in replacement customers. Its still a net loss of BOTH film sales lost to digital and film sales lost to the now part-time film shooter who is double dipping in film and digital. That cannot sustain a film supply, even at 15 million. We are likely down to a film market of 15 million who shoot far less per user than an equivalent 15 million shot in the 1970's. It's a simple opportunity cost equation.

This reduction of film sales volumes per customer is a distribution nightmare for a company like Kodak. Web-based mail order (B&H) has saved their bacon here, but that's only accessible to those who seek film out deliberately and order in volume. It's a total discouragement to casual shooting.

Processing is down so much that used Fuji Frontiers and Noritsus are everywhere as local labs cave in. I spoke to a Fuji rep who used to serve the drugstore chain I worked for who said they no longer distribute new mini-labs; the market is almost entirely dry print, not wet processing, no wet print. Totally gone in North America and almost no new orders anywhere else. internal development of min-lab system is non-existent. All resources for mass processing have been diverted elsewhere. There will come a time when wet mini-labs are custom order from warranty and lease parts only. As with film cameras, it's a salvage market. They still have robust servicing and leasing department to serve those labs still remaining who have picked up the consolidated business, but it is still a market in severe, steep decline. he places a lot of the blame on poor scanning, BTW. It's layout intensive, slow and and energy hog, so is priced too high for many consumers who see it as another push to digital.

For Kodak investors this is the killer issue. There's almost no new third party cameras or processors to drive film, and between Fuji, Kodak, and Ilford, their capacity is far too high for only 15 million part-time shooters, with almost no pro market to speak of to drive residual margins.
 

Wayne

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Wayne, if anything I would expect the Formulary to do better - I hope that they are positioning themselves appropriately. The overall trend in analogue photography is "back to the future"... more interest in those processes that existed before mass-produced roll film etc.

Maybe yes maybe no, unlike others I have no crystal ball. But I do know if someplace like PF goes belly up (and I don't think they are about to) there will be no year long bankruptcy drama with 3 page long predictions and counter predictions (thank god). It will be open one day and closed the next week.

Can we just talk about motorcycles again?
 

Roger Cole

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Thanks for the good information and patience, Henning.

One thing that we should probably come to terms with is the benefit of narrowing the number of films in production. This will be an uncomfortable question for some of us, but: do we really need an ISO 25, 50, 100, 400, and 3200 b&w films, and several of those with different grain types? And from different manufacturers?

Perhaps it's time to start advocating more versatile films and spend less time complaining about the loss of niche products. If we aim to boost production of one type of film to meet Ilford's 8000 m^2 number, we should take a hard look at what films can realistically make those targets. It'll cause some gnashing of teeth but that's where we are.

A 100, a 400 and a 3200. Grain type doesn't matter that much, really.

If pressed, if the 400 is good enough, which all the current 400 films from Kodak and Ilford are, I could make do with a 400 and a 3200.

I still like to shoot Pan F when the speed is adequate, but I sure don't need it. FP4+ similar but less so (I like to shoot it more, and might feel something closet to need for it - if I shot much 35mm black and white any more I'd "need" a medium speed film more, but I don't so I don't. I mostly on shoot 35mm B&W in low light. If there's enough light for my f/3.5 Yashica I shoot MF, unless I'm working slowly in which case it's 4x5. In either, 400 is fine.)

This is black and white. In color I pretty much shoot only Portra 400 now anyway. Ok, an occasional roll of E100G and Provia 400 when I get the slide urge, but all I really need is Portra 400. I'd like something faster, but I'm not sure Portra 800 actually is any faster in practice.
 

Roger Cole

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That's why I'm more concerned about what happens to Photographer's Formulary than Kodak. Not that I think they are in any trouble, but what would I do without glycin?

No one really needs glycin. I accept and respect that you like it. But films can be developed with just metol and sulfite (D23) and pretty well at that. Paper needs something harder working, MQ or PQ normally but I'm sure there are alternatives.

I don't want to give up my favorite materials either, but as long as workable materials are available I'll use them. I really don't think an image succeeds or fails because of what developer is used.
 

polyglot

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With the amount of crap spewed in here, I have mostly this to say:
JpIvY.gif


The lack of camera manufacturing is maybe important for the film market in the short (5-10 years) term because the market can't really grow by more than 2x-4x its current levels... and I think it won't grow much at all and there's more than enough reliable old equipment around to support the current market level for a decade. Easily.

Within that time frame (absolutely no longer than 10 years), I expect to see open-source camera plans being released that can be executed using 3D printing and laser cutting technology. The manufacturing tech is here now and while it's a little expensive at the moment ($1-10k for a 3D printer, $5-50k for laser cutting and/or high quality milling), it's good enough to make everything in an RB67 except the lens cells. Prototype manufacturing is a huge area of current research and within a decade, you can expect to be able to send a design file to a contract manufacturer and receive back a complete mechanical camera kit. Maybe assembled.
 

Rudeofus

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No news with the old CIPA data.
When Henning posted 90+ million analog cameras sold after 2000, (there was a url link here which no longer exists). Now it's suddenly old news? Jeez.
How convenient, Henning. Just more "personal" facts behind your "personal" opinions. Utterly incredible.
He didn't talk about personal facts but about market research he did and was paid for. Nobody has paid you for your doom&gloom "research" so far and there may be a good reason for that. Think about it.

In the last few days you have provided no facts and confronted those who did with cynicism, ridicule and attacks to their credibility. Interesting enough, (there was a url link here which no longer exists) in this very thread, which you conveniently left unanswered: what's your point, CGW? Should we all give up film now because Canadians don't shoot enough analog to support their pro labs? Should we rebrand APUG in Analog Photography Undertaker Group after you lost your favorite lab in Toronto? What is it? Care to tell us? Or is (there was a url link here which no longer exists) indeed correct? Or is it (there was a url link here which no longer exists)?
 
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