Kodak asks Judge to cancel retiree medical benefits

[DREW WILEY]

Why are they uninsured???? And will be insured in four months???? A typical private family premium comparable to employee benefits would cost $30,000 per year with a 5,000 deductible and 250K lifetime cap. Lose your job and a single serious illness will bankrupt you for decades. Yeah, you can
go onto Cobra for a year or so for about $1200 per month per person, but how long can that last if you're out of a job. Lots of heath care workers don't even have health insurance, unless they're unionized. If you're conspicuously poor there are sometimes provisions, but anyone middle-class with a health issue who loses their job is gonna become poor really fast, because there's a huge gap in coverage for them until they're old enough for Medicare to kick in. It's easy enough to go from a modest six-figure income to outright homeless over a single health incident. Seen it happen plenty of
times around here, and we've got the strongest economy in the country.

 

[lxdude]

you can
go onto Cobra for a year or so for about $1200 per month per person, but how long can that last if you're out of a job. Lots of heath care workers don't

For those who don't know, COBRA is a federal law which allows continuation of insurance for a period of time after someone leaves a job for any reason. The former employee takes over the premiums, plus as much as 10% for administrative costs.

 

[Diapositivo]

Thanks. Over here, an averagely paid employee will pay about £170 a month tax called National Insurance. This pays for healthcare, state pension and a few other benefits.

The nice thing about it is that you are still fully covered even if you are not working. e.g. below working age, unemployed (or unable to work) or retired and there are no exemptions for pre-existing conditions which I hear about in the US system.

Our system does have its faults, mostly due to bureaucracy, but we wouldn't want to be without it. From what I can tell, the German system is similar to ours but with less bureaucracy and shorter (if any) waiting times. I think the German system is what we would like ours to be.


Steve.

Over here everybody has full entitlement to full health care coverage. I'm unemployed and I have total coverage for any kind of disease or cure. I could remain unemployed until the end of my days, which could be in 60 years time, and I would still be entitled to everything. Being relatively young (under 50) if I got certain forms of cancer I would be given one of those unbelievably expensive cancer treatments. I know it because a very dear friend of mind died last year, at my age, at his 4th cancer, and he was given that kind of treatment (a "cycle" costed something like €300.000 that's three hundreds thousands IIRC).

The point repeated by PE about some people going to the US to get cure is IMO a red herring.

First, one have to see whence they come from.

Second, one has to see if other countries have people coming from abroad to get cure. Cuba, Italy, the UK and I presume Germany and other countries do get people coming from abroad for hospitalization. (Maradona and Chavez did not go to the US, and they didn't have a money problem).

Third, icebergs of excellence do not speak for the average coverage for the average citizen. I could say, by the same logic, that Italy makes the best cars in the world because people come from all over the world to buy cars here. That's true for Ferrari, Maserati, Lamborghini etc. But these are not the average car you see in the street or at the car dealer.

If we make a reductio ad absurdum one could argue that if the US had so expensive a system that only rich foreigners could afford it, it would nonetheless be possible to claim, by this reasoning, that it must be the best in the world because many people take a plane to use it. For the curious, more than 80% of Ferrari cars, probably 90% are sold to foreign citizens.

The fact that there are excellent hospitals in the US does not mean that the US medical system is excellent. It just means that there are some very good and very expensive health care providers in the US and those for whom money is not a problem do find them excellent.

Regarding the "market price" of medical treatments, the US must be, again, a world exception. In Italy like I believe all over Europe and presumably all over the world the price of each medical treatment is established by a Government decree. That doesn't prevent Europe from having many pharmaceutical firms some of them huge like Novartis and GlaxoSmithKline etc. Frankly I don't think that they rely on the US market to fund their research.

Finally, I am not that surprised that in the US a broken arm costs more than more complex, but not "emergency" interventions. That might easily happen if the hospital can refuse non-emergency treatments but cannot refuse to provide emergency treatments and if the hospital will end up with unpaid bills if the Public Money does not come at the rescue. That will naturally push the hospital to raise the price of emergency treatments because those who pay must pay also for those who don't pay. Those who don't pay are - as explained - those who cannot afford to have preventive medicine, and they do "overuse" the emergency care making the cost spiraling up. Mind you I'm not saying I know the US system enough to say this mechanism is in place. I suspect there must be some mechanism of this kind in place, and I ask: is the hospital "covered" by Father State in case of unpaid emergency care bills?

 

[BradS]

Some do pick up their own. Mine costs about $1,000 per month for medical only. It does differ from State to State though so my own may not be totally representative.

I do not pay for my own any more but a couple of years ago, it was $3000 - $3600 per month for very good coverage for my wife and I and our two kids. That was a couple of years ago. I am certain that it would cost more now.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Part of our problem is not only that the insurance industry has become a gigantic octopus of a
beauracracy in its own right, but that for every doctor out there there is an ambulance-chasing
lawyer. The insurance companies will allow a doctor or medic only eight minutes per patient by contract, or you pay a hefty fine out of reinbursments. If something doesn't get detected, even if
a rare condition, or if there's a misdiagnosis, you run the risk of being sued. So what do doctors
and PA's routinely do: routinely order the most expensive tests like MRI's just to cover themselves
against liability. And there's plenty of slackers out there looking for any excuse possible to sue
someone. I believe we need malpractice laws to protect the public from fraud and incompetence,
but this has gotten wildly out of hand, and the cost of all these special services and related state
of the art equipment is a staggering investment to hospitals. So I agree ... we've probably got the
best gear, but certainly not the best system. People die waiting in line in emergency rooms.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

For those who don't know, COBRA is a federal law which allows continuation of insurance for a period of time after someone leaves a job for any reason. The former employee takes over the premiums, plus as much as 10% for administrative costs.

The Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act (COBRA) of 1986 that mandated separated employees whose employers had been providing medical coverage be offered continued participation for up to 18 months -- 36 months in certain cases -- limited the administrative surcharge to 2%, not 10%.

 

[pbromaghin]

Why are they uninsured???? And will be insured in four months???? A typical private family premium comparable to employee benefits would cost $30,000 per year with a 5,000 deductible and 250K lifetime cap. Lose your job and a single serious illness will bankrupt you for decades. Yeah, you can
go onto Cobra for a year or so for about $1200 per month per person, but how long can that last if you're out of a job. Lots of heath care workers don't even have health insurance, unless they're unionized. If you're conspicuously poor there are sometimes provisions, but anyone middle-class with a health issue who loses their job is gonna become poor really fast, because there's a huge gap in coverage for them until they're old enough for Medicare to kick in. It's easy enough to go from a modest six-figure income to outright homeless over a single health incident. Seen it happen plenty of
times around here, and we've got the strongest economy in the country.

Drew, I don't dispute any of the terrible results of lacking insurance. Both of my grandmothers were wiped out by my grandfather's illnesses. I have had to buy my own insurance before. Your $30,000 is nonsense. I just priced $500-1000 deductible policies for a family of 4 in Colorado at http://www.ehealthinsurance.com. It showed 9 plans from 5 different insurers and they ranged from $680 to $1336 per month. None had a lifetime max. It may no longer be allowed.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Just wait until the dust settles (pretty hard to tell, given all the election fluffing of the cat fur at the
moment) ... I don't know about Colorado, but it's just a matter of time until Calif rates will spread
unless there's considerable Fed intervention. Here the Calif exchange is already legally operative,
and starting next month people will be able to shop rates per 2013, regardless of what the Feds do.
Supreme Court already settled that one. But otherwise, it's pretty gloomy. The only major hospitals
making money are Kaiser, which is self-insured, but not practical to folks in rural areas. And even
they are badly short-staffed. The only thing keeping me on my day job is the insurance issue. I've
been healthy all my adult life, and will be eligible for Medicare in two yrs anyway. I'd like to go into
printmaking full time, but my wife is younger and can't get affordable insurance even in the medical
profession!

 

[Steve Smith]

a couple of years ago, it was $3000 - $3600 per month for very good coverage for my wife and I and our two kids.

How do people manage to afford these huge premiums and why is thought of as acceptable?


Steve.

 

[pbromaghin]

How do people manage to afford these huge premiums and why is thought of as acceptable?


Steve.

I don't know where these numbers are coming from. Ehealthinsurance.com shows $500-1000 deductible plans in area code 90210 to be $842 - 1197. The MOST expensive plan, a Healthnet HMO was $1705.

 

[Steve Smith]

So what is a deductible plan? Is it one which doesn't pay out fully but expects you to make up the shortfall?

Ehealthinsurance.com shows $500-1000 deductible plans in area code 90210 to be $842 - 1197.

That's still about ten times the amount I pay for NHS cover.


Steve.

 

[lxdude]

The Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act (COBRA) of 1986 that mandated separated employees whose employers had been providing medical coverage be offered continued participation for up to 18 months -- 36 months in certain cases -- limited the administrative surcharge to 2%, not 10%.

OK, I just went to the COBRA FAQ at dol.gov, and it verifies what you say, and does not mention any exceptions for health insurance coverage.


I'll relate what happened to me to explain where I came up with that 10% figure.

I was laid off from a job May 31, 2007. My employer had paid 100% of the premium. The HR director told me that COBRA would cost me the premium of $502, plus 2% administrative charge, bringing it to $512 and change. When I contacted the insurer, (can't remember the name) I was told it would cost $552, including 10% admin cost. I relayed what my HR person had told me, and the answer was "That's wrong. I wish people wouldn't say that, it's not correct." So I paid the $552, and thought no more about it, except that I thought it doesn't cost any 10% extra to administer my account.

I'm going to go dig through my old papers and see if I still have any relevant records, and if I have sufficient records, I'm going to contact the Department of Labor.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Today, the workers at the UofR (University of Rochester) began a very noisy rally on campus due to cuts in their health care benefits. It seems that this trend is becoming quite wide spread.

PE

 

[pbromaghin]

So what is a deductible plan? Is it one which doesn't pay out fully but expects you to make up the shortfall?

That's still about ten times the amount I pay for NHS cover.

Steve.

Oh, you pay for it alright. Only it's part of your taxes instead of a direct charge.

A deductible is the amount one has to pay before insurance starts paying. After the deductible is met, you may have to pay a small percentage of the cost until you reach what is called the "out of pocket max", whereupon the insurance company pays everything.

I have a policy called a Preferred Provider Organization, or PPO. The insurance company signs up doctors and facilities who agree to prices far below the artificially inflated prices they charge someone with no insurance - discounts of 75-90%. The doctors do this because they have access to a large number of customers and are assured payment without having to chase non-payers all over the place. This is a big deal for them because a lot of people outside of these networks never pay their bill.

In the past I have had a Health Maintenance Organization, or HMO. In these, the company pays pretty much everything from the start and you never see a bill. The drawback is that you are usually severely restricted as to the doctors you can see. Oh, and they cost more.

Understanding coverage is difficult, even after 30+ years of being insured. It's always changing, with new nomenclature to learn.

 

[DREW WILEY]

You're in a dreamworld if you think you will actually get a family program around here for anything
remotely resembling what you're describing, at least after you read the fine print. Insurance companies are about statistical risk and net profit. Just look what is going to happen to Colorado
home insurance rates after your big forest fires - they have to spread or zone out the increases.
The whole state could hypothetically be affected. Same here. We have a limited number of regional
trauma centers who can't pick and choose who to serve. The regular people pay for all the shot-up
gangbangers and drug overdosers from the bad neighborhoods in our big cities. And what if another significant earthquake comes along here, or some unexpected big tornadoes in Denver, out
your way. Somebody has to pick up the tag, and believe me, the ins companies have plenty of ways
of weaseling out of their obligations.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Oh, and from the other end ... just try to find a doctor who will even accept one of those cheapo plans. Lots of them won't even accept Medicare anymore. Nobody even wants to get into primary
care anymore because 75% of what they do is fight with ins companies trying to even get paid
(it's the stall as long as you can tactic), and because lots of them are going broke before they even
get their med school bills paid off. They don't have much time left over for actual medicine. So everyone wants to be a referral specialist for a good reason. The ins companies would make their lives hell otherwise. The way it's going, nearly all our new primary physicians are coming from other
countries, and even with that, there aren't enough of them. It's getting to be a tough field.

 

[RattyMouse]

I agree. He should stay on the subject matter related to APUG.

Also he said, " I work in Industrial lubricants for manufacturing. I get 10-15 products into the market per year."
That is a pretty impossible output for someone who just a few days ago claimed they make a living from shooting film.

Where did I ever claim to make a living shooting film? I am a rank amateur!

 

[DREW WILEY]

I'm pretty familiar with PPO's, HMO's, and even other options because I've been enlisted in all the
above and currently have a choice of any of em here at the company. We're currently on the Kaiser
which is fairly unique (self-insured hospitals, generally state-of-the-art, now that they've finally
got control of the significant ins fraud incidents which bled their profits in past decades). Pros and
cons all around, depending on where you live. I some rural areas health is more affordable simply
because land is cheaper for clinics, cost of living for doctors themselves, etc. We know all kinds of
doctors - some are going broke, a few are getting slimy rich (sometimes with a little ins and Medicare
fraud on the side), and others have opted out of conventional practice and chosen careers in
medical research or teaching, just to avoid the ratrace. Some are working over a hundred hours a
week and effectively making $16 an hour by the time they pay their malpractice premiums.

 

[brianmquinn]

I am a rank amateur!

Finally a post from you that we can all agree on.
Now since you admit to being an amateur stop acting like you are smarter than everyone else on APUG.
Also please stick to the subject of analog photography.

 

[BrianShaw]

... oooooh.

 

[BradS]

How do people manage to afford these huge premiums and why is thought of as acceptable?


Steve.

Like I said previously, people, individuals, generally do not pay for health insurance. Normally, the company pays or, you go without. Very, very few individuals actually have any idea what it costs.

People also do not realize the tremendous financial burden the uninsured and medicare patients are upon hospitals that accept these patients. Medicare typically only pays providers 20% of the provider's actual cost. (yes, cost not price).

 

[BradS]

You're in a dreamworld if you think you will actually get a family program around here for anything
remotely resembling what you're describing, at least after you read the fine print. Insurance companies are about statistical risk and net profit. Just look what is going to happen to Colorado
home insurance rates after your big forest fires - they have to spread or zone out the increases.
The whole state could hypothetically be affected. Same here. We have a limited number of regional
trauma centers who can't pick and choose who to serve. The regular people pay for all the shot-up
gangbangers and drug overdosers from the bad neighborhoods in our big cities. And what if another significant earthquake comes along here, or some unexpected big tornadoes in Denver, out
your way. Somebody has to pick up the tag, and believe me, the ins companies have plenty of ways
of weaseling out of their obligations.

Exactly correct. People outside of the health care industry do not ever see or think about this but, you've got it spot on.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Well I am lucky. Here we have an excellent union negotiator. Even though I'm non-union myself, and
previously was on a limted mgt plan, the current union contract is win/win. Instead of having a fight
or strike over maintaining health benefits, the got the union to allow non-union employees into the
same plan, hence increasing their own buying power while potentially allowing even the company owners to get a better health plan themselves. It's the kind of thing that can happen when people
work together to solve problems rather than resorting to ideological extremes like we are witnessing
in Congress these days.

 

[DREW WILEY]

And PS ... why the hell aren't there insurance pools for pro photographers? There once was (a feeble attempt to keep this on topic, but a relevant one).

 

[Pioneer]

Finally a post from you that we can all agree on.
Now since you admit to being an amateur stop acting like you are smarter than everyone else on APUG.
Also please stick to the subject of analog photography.

Sorry Brian. This was my doing that sent this post so off track. If it makes you feel better it is loosely related to photography through the Kodak link originally posted by RattyMouse, but of course you probably knew that. There are a whole lot of posts on this site that are much more directly related to analogue photography so, if it makes you feel better, feel free to ignore this one and go read the others.

Everyone have a great weekend.