Kodak Alaris responses and dispatches

RattyMouse · May 26, 2014

StoneNYC said:
Fuji actually states "we will continue to make film forever"

Kodak stated "we will continue to make film while the market sustains"

Also, fuji discontinued thee movie film line and came out with new boxes on their line that they are keeping and able to do so without the movie film line.

Kodak has 2 years on their movie film line, both lines are produced by the same company which is not KA, when the movie line can't profit anymore, kodak with it's massive machine won't sustain on just still film, it will crash unless something huge happens like mentioned earlier with a sell off to another smaller manufacturer.

So most likely Fuji will be around more than 2 years...

So I think many know all if this and think as I do.

If and when kodak fails before Fuji, Fuji will pick up the slack and do ok for a while if they can fix their own distribution issues.

He hasnt said it in awhile, and I'd like a question to him to re-emphasize it, but yes, the CEO of Fujifilm has been quoted several times saying that as long as a single photographer is using film, Fujifilm will make film.

THAT is commitment.

Of course, Fujifilm is *STILL* selling $3000 film cameras (among others). You can buy the Klasse 35mm film cameras along with the two GF' medium format film cameras. Those are clear, tangible ways that Fujifilm is standing behind film.

Also, Fujifilm is two years away from their dropping of motion picture film. That they keep rolling color film (as judged by expiry dates) is a very good sign that Fujifilm can sustain color film, even without a movie industry to help them.

Ken Nadvornick · May 26, 2014

RattyMouse said:
Of course, Fujifilm is *STILL* selling $3000 film cameras (among others). You can buy the Klasse 35mm film cameras along with the two GF' medium format film cameras. Those are clear, tangible ways that Fujifilm is standing behind film.

That's a good point. And one I have more than once thought about when I clicked open the bellows on my still-almost-brand-new Fujifilm GF670 folder. The only other film company that I know of that has introduced a new camera is Harman with their two Titan large format pinhole offerings.

Common sense implies that film companies aren't going to introduce new film cameras right before discontinuing all film for them. (I know, if sense were common, then everyone would have it. But still...)

Ken

Xmas · May 26, 2014

Hi Ratty

They mean buy the IPR and restart production on a smaller extant coating machine.

Pie in sky thinking.

Uber expensive operation.
Shrinking market.
Eastmann Kodaks receivers might want too much

"The impossible people were visionaries but they did not try to make Plus-x."

I said last to a chum who (had) shot all his fine art portraits on Plus-x.

Ilfords coating machine could do it way easy it is the other things that make it less than likely. Ilfords c41 mono is 'better' than the Fuji or Kodak mono, IMO. I have Ilford colour prints from Ilford colour film to hand from '65.

RattyMouse · May 26, 2014

Ken Nadvornick said:
That's a good point. And one I have more than once thought about when I clicked open the bellows on my still-almost-brand-new Fujifilm GF670 folder. The only other film company that I know of that has introduced a new camera is Harman with their two Titan large format pinhole offerings.

Common sense implies that film companies aren't going to introduce new film cameras right before discontinuing all film for them. (I know, if sense were common, then everyone would have it. But still...)

Ken

You need to get that camera past brand new territory and into well used. My GF670 has some scuff marks on it now as I take it all over the place. It is amazing how portable a medium format camera can be when you can fold it up like that.

Roger Cole · May 26, 2014

StoneNYC said:
Fuji actually states "we will continue to make film forever"

Kodak stated "we will continue to make film while the market sustains"

Also, fuji discontinued thee movie film line and came out with new boxes on their line that they are keeping and able to do so without the movie film line.

Kodak has 2 years on their movie film line, both lines are produced by the same company which is not KA, when the movie line can't profit anymore, kodak with it's massive machine won't sustain on just still film, it will crash unless something huge happens like mentioned earlier with a sell off to another smaller manufacturer.

So most likely Fuji will be around more than 2 years...

So I think many know all if this and think as I do.

If and when kodak fails before Fuji, Fuji will pick up the slack and do ok for a while if they can fix their own distribution issues.

I dunno, Fuji just seems to make so few films. E6, which is, let's face it, all but dead in the US at least. One notable B&W film, Acros, albeit a unique and excellent one. Do they still make Neopan anything except Acros now? One pro C41 film, at least that you can get here, 400H, and consumer 35mm C41 which Kodak also makes.

You could be right. I guess we'll see.

Roger Cole · May 26, 2014

Dr Croubie said:
If and when that happens, if Ilford want to kickstarter-fund the purchase of Kodak's Ektar and/or Portra coatings and machines, I'll be in on that...

Me too. Stone can kick in on Velvia/Provia (now if they'd bring back Astia and 400X into the bargain...nah, I want to make prints, dammit, so unless they also brought back Type R paper and chems, or a dye bleach Ilfochrome clone...

RattyMouse · May 26, 2014

Roger Cole said:
I dunno, Fuji just seems to make so few films. E6, which is, let's face it, all but dead in the US at least. One notable B&W film, Acros, albeit a unique and excellent one. Do they still make Neopan anything except Acros now? One pro C41 film, at least that you can get here, 400H, and consumer 35mm C41 which Kodak also makes.

You could be right. I guess we'll see.

I lost a lot of faith when Fujifilm got out of the ISO400 black and white films. That just seems so basic and it makes their film line look really incomplete. However, with Ilford being so strong, it seems actually to be not a bad move. Acros is the one film that Fujifilm makes that is unique in the world of black and white. They SHOULD stick with that film and let Ilford have the rest of the market. Why compete with the best?

The same goes for color film. Provia covers their ISO100/slide markets while 400H covers the higher speed. Velvia is for landscape artists.

It would be REALLY nice if they could have kept REALA, but I guess that could not happen.

Overall I think Fujifilm is almost at rock bottom for their product line. Any more substantial cuts and it looks bad. Real bad.

Ken Nadvornick · May 26, 2014

Xmas said:
They mean buy the IPR and restart production on a smaller extant coating machine.

Pie in sky thinking.

Yet the Film Ferannia guys seemingly have a far more difficult task. They must not only reengineer two new film stocks (an E-6 positive and a C-41 negative) that have been out of production for many years, but they must also resurrect parts of the original factory, which has also been out of production for those same many years, to do it.

Yet they seem to believe it's possible, and that they actually can do it. And they have already reportedly sunk large amounts of time and capital into the process, which according to published reports is apparently quite a ways along now.

It's always dangerous to bet against dedicated people. And it's amazing to see what those people can accomplish when they really, really want to accomplish it. The Golden Prerequisite at work.

Ken

Xmas · May 26, 2014

Ken Nadvornick said:
Yet the Film Ferannia guys seemingly have a far more difficult task. They must not only reengineer two new film stocks (an E-6 positive and a C-41 negative) that have been out of production for many years, but they must also resurrect parts of the original factory, which has also been out of production for those same many years, to do it.

Yet they seem to believe it's possible, and that they actually can do it. And they have already reportedly sunk large amounts of time and capital into the process, which according to published reports is apparently quite a ways along now.

It's always dangerous to bet against dedicated people. And it's amazing to see what those people can accomplish when they really, really want to accomplish it. The Golden Prerequisite at work.

Ken

Hi Ken

You quoted me good

pie in sky thinking

I was trying to explain the problem to Ratty I should have quoted sorry.

Yes a recycled film is not impossible merely very unlikely.

Ilford seem to be happy about coating for a third party and might like the work but...

It was the thinking that was pie in sky.

E6 16mm cine would be nice especially if they did 35mm reels for me... I've a fridge full of c41 bulk & cine etc.

Noel

StoneNYC · May 26, 2014

Ken Nadvornick said:
Yet the Film Ferannia guys seemingly have a far more difficult task. They must not only reengineer two new film stocks (an E-6 positive and a C-41 negative) that have been out of production for many years, but they must also resurrect parts of the original factory, which has also been out of production for those same many years, to do it.

Yet they seem to believe it's possible, and that they actually can do it. And they have already reportedly sunk large amounts of time and capital into the process, which according to published reports is apparently quite a ways along now.

It's always dangerous to bet against dedicated people. And it's amazing to see what those people can accomplish when they really, really want to accomplish it. The Golden Prerequisite at work.

Ken

Necessity breeds invention....

Roger Cole · May 26, 2014

Ken Nadvornick said:
Yet the Film Ferannia guys seemingly have a far more difficult task. They must not only reengineer two new film stocks (an E-6 positive and a C-41 negative) that have been out of production for many years, but they must also resurrect parts of the original factory, which has also been out of production for those same many years, to do it.

Yet they seem to believe it's possible, and that they actually can do it. And they have already reportedly sunk large amounts of time and capital into the process, which according to published reports is apparently quite a ways along now.

It's always dangerous to bet against dedicated people. And it's amazing to see what those people can accomplish when they really, really want to accomplish it. The Golden Prerequisite at work.

Ken

They're doing a C41 film? That's the first I've heard of that. Last I heard was just E6. If so, that's excellent, excellent news. Now if they'll just make an E6 film faster than 100... ok, ok, they have to make *a* film first...

Ken Nadvornick · May 26, 2014

Xmas said:
Yes a recycled film is not impossible merely very unlikely.

ADOX successfully recycled CHS 100 into CHS 100 II due to a spectral sensitizer availability issue.

ADOX also successfully recycled APX 400 into ADOX 400, but the market conditions have so far precluded its introduction.

Impossible Project successfully recycled Polaroid integral color film in multiple handheld formats. They also successfully did it for black-and-white in those formats. I know they did it because I've used it.

Impossible Project also successfully recycled Polaroid integral black-and-white film into the 8x10 format.

Bob Crowley at New55 Film has successfully recycled Polaroid Type 55 P/N film in the 4x5 format. New55 just recently funded from their Kickstarter project on pledges of $415,025, to be used for final R&D and building out the new manufacturing machinery and tooling from scratch. Target delivery is January 2015.

Fuji successfully recycled Velvia 50, which I believe required a reengineering effort as well.

And of course the aforementioned Film Ferrania plans to recycle both the Scotch Chrome 100 (E-6) and Solaris FG-100 Plus (C-41) films in multiple formats, including 8-mm and 16-mm motion picture stock. The E-6 is to come first.

Ken

Xmas · May 26, 2014

Roger Cole said:
They're doing a C41 film? That's the first I've heard of that. Last I heard was just E6. If so, that's excellent, excellent news. Now if they'll just make an E6 film faster than 100... ok, ok, they have to make *a* film first...

holy cow batman
web rumour about to go viral shields up...

think it is E6 16mm cine cams only yes they might sell still 135 & E6 processing is not easy any more.

way more difficult than impossible to commercialize.

Ken Nadvornick · May 26, 2014

Roger Cole said:
They're doing a C41 film? That's the first I've heard of that. Last I heard was just E6. If so, that's excellent, excellent news.

That's what they're saying. But the E-6 is supposed to be first in line for all of the 8/16mm MP folks.

From the company's own Wikipedia entry (at the bottom of the page):

"Ferrania's film production is going to start again in early 2014, with FILM Ferrania having announced in 2013 to re-start production of Solaris FG-100 Plus color negative film and Scotch Chrome 100 color slide film in a variety of formats, with a potential emphasis on cine film.

Nicola Baldini, chief of the new company, in an interview does not rule out the possibility of restart the production of black and white films, like the historical Ferrania Pancro 30."

Ken

Roger Cole · May 26, 2014

Xmas said:
holy cow batman
web rumour about to go viral shields up...

think it is E6 16mm cine cams only yes they might sell still 135 & E6 processing is not easy any more.

way more difficult than impossible to commercialize.

I am pretty sure I read right here that it would be 35mm as well as 16mm E6.

Is there really that much demand for E6 (or anything) in 16mm cine? Please don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking anyone's hobby or interest in such, it just seems to me that if the market for 35mm still E6 was small (and it is, especially in the US it seems) that the one for 16mm cine would be tiny, and any hope of making a new one commercially viable would have to include 35mm still film.

Ken Nadvornick · May 26, 2014

See the link addition edit made to my previous post (#200)...

Ken

miha · May 26, 2014

SNIP:

Ken Nadvornick said:
ADOX also successfully recycled APX 400 into ADOX 400, but the market conditions have so far precluded its introduction.

Ken

I very much hope they will reintroduce their ADOX 400 someday; the original APX 400 had the most beautiful tonality of all fast films, although it was as grainy as ORWO 27!

Jaf-Photo · May 26, 2014

Unfortunately, I think it's virtually impossible that any of the competitors would pick up any Kodak films if the film manufacture were cancelled altogether.

Fuji and Ilford would benefit from the lack of alternatives and it would make no sense to introduce products that compete with their own, at a massive cost to that.

If Tri-X disappeared, photographers would be forced to look to HP5. If Portra disappeared, photograhers would be forced to look to 400H.

Smaller players might be interested, but I doubt they would have the resources to go through with it.

In short the people that would want to revive Kodak film don't have the money and the people that have the money wouldn't want to.

Xmas · May 26, 2014

Roger Cole said:
I am pretty sure I read right here that it would be 35mm as well as 16mm E6.

Is there really that much demand for E6 (or anything) in 16mm cine? Please don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking anyone's hobby or interest in such, it just seems to me that if the market for 35mm still E6 was small (and it is, especially in the US it seems) that the one for 16mm cine would be tiny, and any hope of making a new one commercially viable would have to include 35mm still film.

Your appreciation is correct but my appreciation was that they started some time ago cause they wanted 16 mm cine E6.

Now they would have real good support from the 35mm stills market. As well as subminuture 16mm stills!

Lastly I too was startled when I read the Adox CHS 100 type II data sheet which included super 8! So there still may be some cine. Indeed at least one film has been shot on 16mm went cult and then reshot partly in 35mm for feature length.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Star_(film)

The only flaw is E6 processing will be more difficult for some people as the market contracts a cycle... I've done E6 at home but hard work.

Viable is a difficult call if they keep the distribution web based they may make sufficient money.

Xmas · May 26, 2014

Ken Nadvornick said:
See the link addition edit made to my previous post (#200)...

Ken

Thanks Ken that startled me cause they need to sell something and make a profit and fill demand to need to do a recoat.

Trying to do two different film types needs two production coating runs.

Selling C41 with 24 of rebrands @$1.49/£1.00 way more difficult...

It will be mid 14 this side of the pond in a month.

Dinesh · May 26, 2014

RattyMouse said:
Absolute nonsense. I can't believe the level of misunderstanding here.

If you say so.

ambaker · May 26, 2014

I see two potentially successful ways forward.

1. Find a new use for film, or something close enough to it that it keeps the machines and chemistry we need running. Yes it is a solution in search of a problem, which has been successful before.

2. Position film as the next step beyond digital. Beat the drum hard for those areas where film compares favorably with digital, and ignore the rest. Much like every other marketing campaign.

Neither is a sure deal... One of the biggest problems I see is lack of new equipment. A lot of people see the idea of starting out with 20 year old equipment as less than favorable.

Otherwise, it is selling to the choir... And, really how much advertising does the choir need, unless it is to make us feel like things are OK?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

AgX · May 26, 2014

Ken Nadvornick said:
Impossible Project successfully recycled Polaroid integral color film in multiple handheld formats. They also successfully did it for black-and-white in those formats. I know they did it because I've used it.

Polaroid had offered an integral b&w instant film before.

AgX · May 26, 2014

ambaker said:
One of the biggest problems I see is lack of new equipment. A lot of people see the idea of starting out with 20 year old equipment as less than favorable.

I rsather say the knive cuts at both sides: Many People curious about analog photography value the fact that they can get cameras for next to nothing.

ME Super · May 26, 2014

Many people already in analog photography like working with a 75MPE sensor. Some of us even like to project our images at 4' x 6' (approx. 1.5x2 meters) or larger.

Kodak Alaris responses and dispatches

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