Kodak Alaris Promoting Film

[pentaxuser]

I believe your conclusion that Kodak is not competitive based upon your experience with BW film.
I do not know the market share of color vs black/white but I am not on-board with your conclusion Kodak is overpriced in general.

I think you may be right in general but in the case of bulk rolls Kodak in the U.K. is ridiculously overpriced. It is as if its bulk film bears no relationship to the same film in cassettes.

If it was simply U.K. retailers in some kind of price cartel then given the "apparent profit" in bulk film I believe one of the retailers would break ranks to corner the whole market

I am persuaded that the retailers are price followers and their prices reflect the "madness" of the Kodak bulk film price in the U.K.

There was a thread about this quite recently

Kodak is competitive by and large in its film cassette prices compared to Ilford and it's much the same with 120 film. TMax 400 120 film is close in price to D400

If it makes sense to compete with Ilford in the U.K. the film cassette prices then its bulk roll prices just makes no sense at all.

pentaxuser

 

[Xmas]

I believe your conclusion that Kodak is not competitive based upon your experience with BW film. However a very quick look online and for C-41 ISO 400 & 800, Kodak is equally priced if not cheaper than the competition.

Agfa Vista is a 'wee' bit cheaper in C41, has been for a few years now.
Maybe your shops dont have any?

I do not know the market share of color vs black/white but I am not on-board with your conclusion Kodak is overpriced in general.

They are only overpriced in bulk 100 foot packages but that is 95% of what I buy, as well as other people in tight budgets. They are ignoring the Agfa Vista pricing, I dont use C41 but my chums how do use C41 only use Agfa Vista.

Silver print has no FOMA for a large fraction of the year cause it is on an arts Uni campus and the students clean out all the FOMA stock first, before they start on Ilford.

If KA are advertising I dont see their ads, I do see Impossible ads, on non photographic sites.

I do have a lot of 5222 in fridge from past when it was relatively cheaper.

 

[Xmas]

Efke had some great product for awhile, as long as you were careful with the handling - deep shade for changing roll film, being very careful about stop bath strength and wash temp, etc.

I always process with a water stop and 1C tempering, all they way to surfactant, but also use a squeegee, never have had any problems with Efke or Foma, apart from light piping

Kodak is certainly still at the top of the reliability factor.

Ive had problems with 5222, none with Ilford cine...

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

Lets see:
HP5+ 30.5m is £56-60: http://www.harmanexpress.com/prod/25/ILFORD-HP5-PLUS.htm
http://shop.silverprint.co.uk/Ilford-HP5-400-Bulk-Roll-35mmx30m/product/17568/1656031/
http://www.processuk.net/HP5_PLUS_400_35mm_x_30m_Bulk_Roll/p740597_3426769.aspx

Tri-x 30.5m is £156: http://shop.silverprint.co.uk/Kodak-Tri-X-400-Bulk-35mmx30-5m/product/57342/1067214/
http://www.processuk.net/TRI-X_PAN_400_135_x_30m_Roll/p740597_3426803.aspx

If you really want to splash some money, you can get it here: http://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/products/1038/kodak-tri-x-pro-30m-iso-400
Yeap, that's £170.

Fomapan 400 30.5m is £40: http://www.processuk.net/Fomapan_400_135mm-305m/p740597_13877235.aspx

Kentmere 400 30.5m is £40-43: http://www.harmanexpress.com/prod/68/KENTMERE-B-W-FILM.htm
http://shop.silverprint.co.uk/Kentmere-Film/products/206/

Now, lets talk about value.
I can get here in London all day, every day if need, fresh film, long dated, near 5 years on expiry date from Harman.
Same way I can get any Foma film fresh with 2-3 years on expiry date.
But, I only see "fresh" Koda film with 2 years on expiry date.

The qualities of the emulsion, its grain structure, the rendition of blacks, the tones are great in any Ilford, Kentmere or Foma film.
I don't see any "special" qualities on Tri-x for it to warrant a higher price. Not 3 times more.

In fact, I now know that Kodak is using frozen master rolls.
I know that Harman doesn't need or ever done such a thing. AFAIK the same goes for Foma.

So, Kentmere or Foma films are really very good value for their qualities.

 

[Xmas]

Kodak Alaris online ads are public fact and you can easily get approximate stats of their daily budget, film is not in the top 100 of the keywords / phrases they bid in the last year or so.
This “landing page” is a hint http://promo.kodakalaris.com/

Ive not seen any evidence of KA existence, unless I go past their headquarters building, or google. so where are the ads demonstrated?

I see impossible (film) ads on web pages.

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

I dont use C41 but my chums how do use C41 only use Agfa Vista.

And I'm one of them! £1 a roll, you can't beat that for value. And they are sold where most people on tight budgets do their normal shopping: the pound shops. So, they are also visible to the common man.
Kodak is only visible to them in the form of batteries.

 

[cmacd123]

The Kodak bulk rolls seem to have creeped up in price in North America also. Using Freestyle for an exampe as they advertise on this site...

100Ft of Tri-X US$127.69 on Sale
36 exposure - US$5.03

100ft will give 18 rolls at $7.09 a roll. So to buy in Bulk you "save" -37 dollars! I can't afford to save minus dollars.

Form the same dealer

100Ft HP5 $64.49
36 Exposure HP5 5.59
Loadiing the same 18 rolls costs 3.58 a roll or an actual saving of 44 dollars.

It is apparent that Alaris does NOT WANT to sell bulk film. even if Tri-X on sale is slightly lower in price as 36 exposure rolls in Hollywood.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Sal, get in the middle? I mean between you and Noel!

As for prices, remember that the Kodak film is made in the US and shipped to the UK or wherever required for sales. Ilford (Harman), is sold directly in Europe. So, duties and shipping charges apply on Kodak Alaris products in the UK and all of Europe. In the other direction the same things apply for Ilford.

Both companies are trying to keep costs down but with Silver fluctuating up and down and both companies having to juggle futures, there are problems for both.

Note that the Alaris ad above is for prints from smartphones. This is therefore not a direct ad for film.

Of course, I see none in my daily to and fro from any film company nowdays.

PE

 

[Sal Santamaura]

Sal, get in the middle? I mean between you and Noel! ...

Yes, I understood that. My response to you reflected the fact that your posts describe reality. My observation about Noel was meant to convey he doesn't accept the reality of a value proposition where film manufacturer quality tiers is concerned. That's all.

Since it appears you're uncomfortable, I'll not invoke you again should further exchanges on the subject occur. However, the noise seems to have died down a bit. I mentioned sheet TRI-X, but only miniature/roll versions were discussed in subsequent posts. Others find unique value in sheet TMY-2. No one responds to that either. Let's hope it's trailing off. For now at least.

 

[Xmas]

I've used a lot of Kchrome25 a brick of ten 135 to every wedding.
Until rescently I was buying 5222 it was cheap
I only get 17 loads from 100 foot
I understand about commerce and sales tax
My point was KA are not going to sell any bulk Tx in UK.
Trust me they are not.
I never see their adverts
And EKs published accounts make grim reading.
KA aren't seling much c41 either

 

[Roger Cole]

I understand that there are some cheap brand which increase the risk of ending up with defective products, but from what I read Ilford is not one of these "cheap brands". Yet their film, as claimed by Xmas, comes at 1/3 of the cost. Something must be off with KA's sales chain.

It's only 1/3 the cost in the rather special case of 35mm bulk film. I long ago gave up bulk loading as a not-worth-it PITA.

Kodak sheet film is rather absurdly priced too, but in pre loaded 35mm and 120 it's competitive.

 

[Roger Cole]

I've only found Kodak's B&W sheet film to be significantly more expensive. 35mm rolls are often cheaper than Ilford.

Bulk roll prices are pretty insane. I think it'd be cheaper to buy 36s and, if you only want say 20 shots, just waste the other 16.

They clearly want to discourage bulk loading. Fine by me as I really don't shoot 35mm black and white anymore except some very high speed where I've found D3200 a perfectly fine replacement for my loved and lamented TMZ. But I can see how someone who shoots a ton of 35mm black and white on a budget would prefer to bulk load Ilford or Kentmere or even Foma. That makes sense, but doesn't seem to be a market Kodak Alaris cares to compete for.

 

[Roger Cole]

Yes, I understood that. My response to you reflected the fact that your posts describe reality. My observation about Noel was meant to convey he doesn't accept the reality of a value proposition where film manufacturer quality tiers is concerned. That's all.

Since it appears you're uncomfortable, I'll not invoke you again should further exchanges on the subject occur. However, the noise seems to have died down a bit. I mentioned sheet TRI-X, but only miniature/roll versions were discussed in subsequent posts. Others find unique value in sheet TMY-2. No one responds to that either. Let's hope it's trailing off. For now at least.

I still have refrigerated TMY-2 4x5, including one expired but unopened always refrigerated box. I love the film but I'm debating whether to shoo it or sell it since I plan to move to HP5+ anyway so I might as well start learning the new film. And yes, in this case the reason is economic. TMY-2 is possibly the best black and white film ever made by anyone anywhere, but for my uses it is just not worth the price difference when HP5+ will do me just fine.

 

[georg16nik]

Perhaps, you are not falling into Kodak Alaris target audience, since most of their Ads are triggered by everything but film users. e.g “portable printer for iphone”, “mobile phone printers”.

Ive not seen any evidence of KA existence, unless I go past their headquarters building, or google. so where are the ads demonstrated?

I see impossible (film) ads on web pages.

 

[Xmas]

Sal, get in the middle? I mean between you and Noel! ...

Note that the Alaris ad above is for prints from smartphones. This is therefore not a direct ad for film.

Of course, I see none in my daily to and fro from any film company nowdays.

PE

I see impossible ads on my other social web site.

And there are APUG sponsors banners below this post.

 

[film_man]

Kodak does not need to advertise film in APUG, that's like preaching to the converted. Besides, reading most comments in APUG people here prefer to buy cheap film at the pound shop and process at home. Fair enough but hardly a target audience worth going after if you have employees to pay.

My opinion is that Kodak needs to sell film where it matters and that is professional photographers. Pretty much any professional photographer that uses film in bulk for their work is a wedding photographer. Pretty much all wedding photographers (film or digital) have a presence on Facebook and Instagram. Thus you either get to them via Facebook or in trade shows and direct promotions. This is also the only area where you may get growth, by getting pro digital shooters to try film either in parallel or switch completely.

We like it or not, the consumer boat has sailed a long time ago and the average hobbyist will never go back to shooting film. The only way for Kodak to stay relevant is to sell to professionals.

Also, Kodak is NOT like Impossible. Impossible's target audience is people using it for fun and as an alternative process so they do have to advertise to everyone just like Fuji promotes the Instax range to consumers.

For those that are not very well versed in the social media universe of 2015, these are the ones that matter nowadays:

Facebook
Twitter
Instagram
Pinterest

From Kodak's perspective I'd say Facebook and Instagram would be the most important, they seem to be missing out on Instagram though which is very suited to photography and showcasing interesting photos/people. Which is a bit weird.

 

[Roger Cole]

There are way more hobbyists shooting film than professionals. I think that is exactly backwards. Out of curiosity I looked around for someone shooting film to photograph my own wedding three years ago. I couldn't find anyone. (I wouldn't have paid for it anyway, I hired a friend who dabbles with her DSLR and normally doesn't do weddings - we're quite happy with the results. Spent quite enough on the venue, I'd have really considered spending thousands on photos to be a complete waste, but that's me.)

Most of us don't prefer to buy the cheapest film either. Only a small but very vocal minority fall into that contingent. Most of us prefer to buy the BEST film for our use, with some constraints on cost. I will change my 4x5 from TMY-2 to HP5+ due to the cost savings as they are substantial and I won't be giving up anything in my personal work by doing so. I continue to use Kodak and Ilford across the board (comparable prices in 35mm and 120) and only dabble with a little rebranded Foma for experimentation and giggles more than anything.

Well across the board other than E6, where I have no choice any longer. Oh I also shoot an occasional roll of Acros but that's because of its very unique look, not price.

 

[Xmas]

@film_man

I'd not employ you as marketing manager if I was CEO of KA.

The only stills pro I know who still uses film for work is Bruce Guilden.

Film apart from the big studios is only hobby or people who need a film portfolio to get digital work.

I stopped weddings when they killed Kchrome 25.

 

[film_man]

There are way more hobbyists shooting film than professionals. I think that is exactly backwards. Out of curiosity I looked around for someone shooting film to photograph my own wedding three years ago. I couldn't find anyone. (I wouldn't have paid for it anyway, I hired a friend who dabbles with her DSLR and normally doesn't do weddings - we're quite happy with the results. Spent quite enough on the venue, I'd have really considered spending thousands on photos to be a complete waste, but that's me.)

There may be more hobbyists than professionals but how many hobbyists spend like a professional? On a 1-day wedding day someone will shoot anything from 20-50 or even 60 rolls. At my current rate I think I'll shoot 150 rolls this year (don't know where that puts me as a hobbyist whether I'm using a lot or not). A professional photographer (at least the few that I personally know shooting film) will easily shoot 10 times that. So ten of me is one of them, what would be more cost effective and important for your business to build a lasting relationship?

Funnily enough, from the people I know in person (not online via forums and facebook etc), I and the wife are the only hobbyists shooting film, yet I know quite a few professionals who are shooting film exclusively or are hybrid digital/film.

Most of us don't prefer to buy the cheapest film either. Only a small but very vocal minority fall into that contingent.

My mistake, I took the vocal minority as you say to be the norm in APUG

 

[film_man]

@film_man

I'd not employ you as marketing manager if I was CEO of KA.

The only stills pro I know who still uses film for work is Bruce Guilden.

Film apart from the big studios is only hobby or people who need a film portfolio to get digital work.

I stopped weddings when they killed Kchrome 25.

That's ok as I wasn't after the job. As for who shoots film a quick search in Google will bring up lots of names so I'll just let you do that. Alternatively I'd go to Instagram and look at the work featured in the FIND lab, Carmencita and UK Film lab accounts. Plenty of pros there.

They won't be known as Gilden and the vast majority are wedding/portrait shooters. I find your comment that film is for people who need a film portfolio to get digital work baffling. ???

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

Most of us prefer to buy the BEST film for our use

It happens that Foma and Kentmere are the BEST films for my use.

Funnily enough, from the people I know in person (not online via forums and facebook etc), I and the wife are the only hobbyists shooting film, yet I know quite a few professionals who are shooting film exclusively or are hybrid digital/film.

I would like to know which part of London you are seeing this. All I see in the East End is a bunch of amateurs, often young people using film cameras. All pros I know use digi like Dougie Wallace: http://metro.co.uk/2014/11/15/shore...n-londons-most-vibrant-neighbourhood-4949370/

 

[Xmas]

They won't be known as Gilden and the vast majority are wedding/portrait shooters. I find your comment that film is for people who need a film portfolio to get digital work baffling. ???

I was startled to. A hot news photog explained the only way he could get commissioned work dcam work was with a film wet print portfolio!
He and I were door stepping a demo outside the BBC @portland place, and after a half dozen questions, when he asked about warm toning..., I inquired was he a wet printer...
Other people have indicated the hot news is girls iPhones and apps that send photo and caption to pic editor.
The hot news DSLR persons are going to wall. Click button push on pic editors desk tap tap button push caption on editors screen... Even my iPhone has an app.
You don't need a press pass when you push the 2nd button the plods or chief whips career is history.

 

[film_man]

I would like to know which part of London you are seeing this. All I see in the East End is a bunch of amateurs, often young people using film cameras. All pros I know use digi like Dougie Wallace: http://metro.co.uk/2014/11/15/shore...n-londons-most-vibrant-neighbourhood-4949370/

The people I personally know are all over the place in the UK and Europe, Cornwall, Midlands, Portugal, Sweden, Austria and the rest but not in London. I think one of the higher profile people in London (though I think she recently moved to Ibiza) that shoot film are Polly Alexandre, BJP had a feature on her last year or so but I don't know her. If I was to look in online forums I participate that are related to film photography there are people all over Europe and tons in the US that are mostly wedding photographers.

Saying that only two weeks ago I bought a R3A from an italian living in Finsbury Park who is a hybrid pro shooter, shooting digital for wedding work and medium format for commercial stuff.

I think the best way to get a feel of things is to look up featured work on Instagram in film lab accounts as I mentioned in my previous post.

 

[Alan Klein]

Let's all just hope that enough film is bought to keep the manufacturers interested.

 

[Element 6]

Let's all just hope that enough film is bought to keep the manufacturers interested.

Excellent comment. I am not ready to coat my own plates (yet).