Kodak Alaris finally sold to chinese?

[AgX]

Until the sale, a large proportion of Kodak Alaris' business came not from film but rather from supplying photographic labs with colour photographic paper, and colour photochemicals and lab kiosks and related software.
It is that business that has been sold - not the still film business.

Sino Promise speaks of photochemicals, not of colour photochemicals. Maybe they do not differentiate as the still film busines is insignificant to them.

But one should not overlook the different lab situation throughout the world. Here in Europe there are hardly any colour labs, In Germany hardly even one-hour labs. The great majority of colour prints is made by very few firms, so big that they likely made deals in the past with Alaris themselves.

 

[markjwyatt]

Kodak Alaris doesn't do (photographic materials or products) manufacturing.
Since selling Harrow a few years ago, Kodak Alaris no longer makes or manufactures the paper, and never made or manufactured any of those other products. Eastman Kodak also hadn't manufactured many of those products for years before Kodak Alaris took over.
I don't know whether their software is done in house, or also contracted out.

So basically, they have acquired worldwide distribution rights, plus maybe they take over marketing also?

 

[MattKing]

No, they own those products now, and are entitled to use the Kodak name on them - that is what Kodak Alaris owned before the sale. All manufacturing is/was done under contract by generally un-named third parties, although the paper is being produced in the Carestream facility in Colorado. At one time I believe that Kodak Alaris had a leasehold interest in those premises. I don't know whether that interest either went with the sale or expired.

 

[Craig]

Having read all that, I am still not 100% sure who makes my T-Max and Xtol.

I believe Xtol is made by Tetenal. The bags I have are made in Germany.

 

[markjwyatt]

No, they own those products now, and are entitled to use the Kodak name on them - that is what Kodak Alaris owned before the sale. All manufacturing is/was done under contract by generally un-named third parties, although the paper is being produced in the Carestream facility in Colorado. At one time I believe that Kodak Alaris had a leasehold interest in those premises. I don't know whether that interest either went with the sale or expired.

Thanks, Matt. I presume all the manufacturing is done under license to Kodak (or to the Kodak pension plan, but somehow formulas get controlled/verified)?

 

[MattKing]

Thanks, Matt. I presume all the manufacturing is done under license to Kodak (or to the Kodak pension plan, but somehow formulas get controlled/verified)?

I expect that the mechanism is that Kodak Alaris holds (held?) the IP, after it was assigned first by the bankruptcy trustee to the Pension Plan trustees, and subsequently re-assigned to their asset, Kodak Alaris.
But there are too many inter-jurisdictional complexities for me to know with confidence about how the mechanisms were put into place.

 

[AgX]

As Matt explained, we already still do not know the details of Kodak / Kodak Pension Plan / Kodak Alaris contract, and we even less know on the current contract with Sino Promise. Instead we are going circles since this discussion came up in July.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

This is the laughable result: http://www.ars-imago.com/kodaktmax40013536nuovaemulsione-p-7815.html
10€ for a single 36exp roll of T-Max 400, WITHOUT the future price hike.
In 2021 that roll will cost 13€...

 

[DeletedAcct1]

As a side note: 25€ for a Velvia 100 roll!!
http://www.ars-imago.com/fujichromevelvia10013536-p-5493.html

 

[Sirius Glass]

As Matt explained, we already still do not know the details of Kodak / Kodak Pension Plan / Kodak Alaris contract, and we even less know on the current contract with Sino Promise. Instead we are going circles since this discussion came up in July.

But we can run around like chickens with their heads cut off screaming "We will all be killed", and that is ever so much more fun than waiting for this to work its way out. Besides there is really nothing we can do other than bitch.

 

[AgX]

Your wording of this all is far better than mine...

 

[grat]

This is the laughable result: http://www.ars-imago.com/kodaktmax40013536nuovaemulsione-p-7815.html
10€ for a single 36exp roll of T-Max 400, WITHOUT the future price hike.
In 2021 that roll will cost 13€...

$7.99 / roll at B&H, a bit less if you buy them in a 5 pack. Conversion rate says that 9.90€ is roughly $11.99 right now.

As a side note: 25€ for a Velvia 100 roll!!
http://www.ars-imago.com/fujichromevelvia10013536-p-5493.html

$18 for a single roll. $17 ea. when bought in a 5 pack.

I'm not entirely sure how you can blame Kodak Alaris for Fuji's prices, but still. The real problem seems to be ars-imago's pricing-- which may be the result of the EU market, or it may just be that expensive to import the film. When I was looking to purchase a lab-box, I found ars-imago's prices in general to be a bit higher than what I would pay at B&H or Adorama.

 

[Craig]

I'm not entirely sure how you can blame Kodak Alaris for Fuji's prices, but still. The real problem seems to be ars-imago's pricing-- which may be the result of the EU market, or it may just be that expensive to import the film. When I was looking to purchase a lab-box, I found ars-imago's prices in general to be a bit higher than what I would pay at B&H or Adorama.

Don't forget in most EU countries there is VAT/sales tax in the region of 20%, so that will bring up retail prices.

 

[radiant]

This is the laughable result: http://www.ars-imago.com/kodaktmax40013536nuovaemulsione-p-7815.html
10€ for a single 36exp roll of T-Max 400, WITHOUT the future price hike.
In 2021 that roll will cost 13€...

Nope.. 7.99 eur, 7.8 when you buy 10:

https://www.fotoimpex.de/shop/filme/kodak-t-max-400-13536-tmy.html?cache=1607505336

20% cheaper than your example.

 

[BSP]

Maybe it's time to stop being loyal to a brand and start being loyal to a manufacturer? Just a thought....

 

[AgX]

Don't forget in most EU countries there is VAT/sales tax in the region of 20%, so that will bring up retail prices.

Nevertheless the film in question is still less in price at a different EU online-store.

 

[markjwyatt]

I expect that the mechanism is that Kodak Alaris holds (held?) the IP, after it was assigned first by the bankruptcy trustee to the Pension Plan trustees, and subsequently re-assigned to their asset, Kodak Alaris.
But there are too many inter-jurisdictional complexities for me to know with confidence about how the mechanisms were put into place.

Do we know who contracts the third parties? Alaris/Sino or Kodak?

 

[mshchem]

Film is cheap. It's the money that's worthless

 

[Sirius Glass]

Film is cheap. It's the money that's worthless

 

[MattKing]

Do we know who contracts the third parties? Alaris/Sino or Kodak?

Kodak Alaris/Sino.
Eastman Kodak is a printing services company with a small division that manufactures photographic film and markets the motion picture portions of that production.
They have absolutely nothing to do with the other products that Kodak Alaris/Sino sell.

 

[ludwighagelstein]

Lots of misinformation here, so let me clarify something:

EASTMAN Kodak and KODAK ALARIS are two seperate companies. Eastman Kodak produces all exposable materials, e.g still and cinefilms sold under diverse brands. Portra, Ektar, TriX etc are made by Eastman Kodak, but sold and distributed by Kodak Alaris in the UK. That film business still remains with Kodak Alaris, but the Paper and Photochemical division has been sold off to SINOPROMISE. The factory in WUXI that now has been sold to SINO along distribution rights has been owned by Kodak Alaris and before that by Eastman Kodak before the Chapter 11 and has been producing Flexicolor chemistry among other things. The prosumer chemicals like HC-110 or Xtol are OEM prodcuts made either in Germany or the US, but not by either Kodak Alaris or Eastman Kodak and have been distributed by Kodak Alaris as part of the FPP Division which now has been split up with Film remaining at Alaris and the rest having been bought by SINO. For consumers, nothing will change, and some OEM hiccups that were the result of the near bancrupcy of Tetenal and the subsequent supply glitches are being ironed out at the moment. Professional labs receive the same Kodak Flexicolor chemistry they have used for more than a decade now, made in WUXI, China. The only thing that has changed is the business owing the factory.

If you want to read more about it, I published an article about the very thing a while ago here: https://petapixel.com/2020/07/16/wh...and-chemistry-to-china-is-a-good-development/

And in case some of you would like to ask questions to Kodak (Andy Church) themselves, you can do so here tomorrow in a panel discussion hosted by Silvergrainclassics via Zoom: https://silvergrainclassics.com/en/2020/12/analog-photography-fireside-chat-29-dec/

 

[AgX]

... that were the result of the near bancrupcy of Tetenal...

Tetenal HAS gone bancrupt. A new firm has been established.

 

[ludwighagelstein]

Tetenal HAS gone bancrupt. A new firm has been established.

Well yes, technically. Although the resulting Tetenal 1847 GmbH is a new company and the result of a management buyout, it´s still Tetenal and not some OEM business split into 15 parts. For convenience I used the term nearly averted bancrupcy in terms of nearly avoided total catastrophe. It´s a bit nitpicking though, and since my point was less about the company structure of Tetenal rather than the result. But yes, you´re right of course.

 

[lantau]

Hopefully the new owner will make changes in distribution. For endusers in Germany, at least, is is impossible to buy colour chemistry and paper. I mean rolls, not even cut sheet.

 

[ludwighagelstein]

Hopefully the new owner will make changes in distribution. For endusers in Germany, at least, is is impossible to buy colour chemistry and paper. I mean rolls, not even cut sheet.

GFH in Munich sell it, though I think B2B only. http://gfh-foto.de/shop/labor/fotopapier/kodak-colorpapier-display-material.html If in doubt, just give them a call, they are super helpful and I doubt they wouldn´t sell you paper if you asked.