Kodak 3-A Pocket C Premo (Huh????)

[Removed Account]

Well, I was browsing a local antique shop, not really expecting to find anything interesting, but it turns out that I did. One item was a severely beaten Rollei TLR, not a Rolleiflex but still Rollei-somethingorother. The other was this wonderful folding Kodak that looked similar to some brownie's I have seen, but larger. There is a door in the back revealing a ground glass, and as far as I can tell there is no spot for anything like a modern film holder. The back pulls backwards on some spring like feeling thing revealing the inside, presumably where the film goes. Does anyone know anything about this camera? The markings on it are as follows:

Lens:
Bausch & Lomb Optical Co.
3 1/4 X 5 1/2
Planatograph f8 E.F. 6 3/4"

Inside the door for the groundglass:
3-A
Pocket C
Pat. Oct 20, 1903
July 21, 1896
July 5 (I think) 1902
Oct 19, 1909
Feb 4, 1908
Mar 21, 1911
July 8, 1913
Manufactured by Eastman Kodak Co.
Successor to
Rochester Optical Co.
Rochester, NY, USA

0913



The camera is covered in leather, and embossed on the carry strap is the word "Premo", spelled just like that. There is a small dot on top of the main body of the camera that says, "The Premo Camera Made In Canada"

It folds up, and could work in wide orientation, but the tripod mount is placed so it is mainly vertical for tripod use. At first glance it seems to be light tight, the aperture and shutter controls work, how well I don't know. The shutter seems quite fast at 1, 2, and 5. When it sits for a few minutes the first click it will seem appropriately slow, and then speed up again. There is also a sort of mirror viewfinder on the top. The dealer was asking $175 CDN$, would you suggest going for it and taking it in for a shutter and aperture adjustment? I haven't been able to find much info on the camera, but it seems to be a plate type. Is there a film holder, or just shoot then process like it seems? Would 4x5 film work, or would I need to somehow scrounge up the proper size plate? Thanks for the help everyone! I appreciate the great welcome I've been given!

- Justin Silber

 

[cblurton]

This might be your camera:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bstrong/169227865/in/pool-camerapedia/

If so, contact Bill Strong who posted the picture:

http://www.flickr.com/people/bstrong/

mailto:bill@stronghorses.com

Even if it isn't the same camera, he'll probably be able to help.

Craig

 

[Whiteymorange]

I have a 3A with a ground glass back, separate from the regular back with a red window used for roll film. I have two plate holders for it as well, though the size different from any film I can buy today (I'm at work, without any of my references or the camera, so I can't give particulars.) My understanding is that certain models of the 3A were capable of ground glass / plate photography or roll film use. Mine has a Tessar in a Koilos shutter and takes a pretty decent picture on 120 film, after refitting it for that film.

 

[John Bartley]

I've not seen a 3A used with glass plates (although my experience is limited), but when I was given my great-uncles 3A, I read up on them and I gather that while a few people bought the ground glass/film holder option, most opted for the 122 roll film version as it was simply easier to send the film away and get prints back. I've been searching for an affordable ground glass/film holders setup for a long time now. They rarely show up on eBay and I don't think I've ever seen a glass plates model. While I can't swear to it, I seem to recall that the image size is 3-1/2" x 5-1/2" and was known as "postcard" size? Cutting down 5"x7" would be feasible and cutting down a roll of 5" Aero film would be even cheaper I would think.

 

[athanasius80]

I think we're talking about two different cameras here. Your Pocket Premo was most likely used with 3-1/2 x 5-1/2 film or plate holders. They do show up occasionally on e_bay. 3A refers to the format size, and normally a 3A camera would use 122 rollfilm.
I do have the ground glass back for a 122 film 3A camera. They were sold as an optional add on, and not many seem to have been sold. I think the holders are a little ricketty, but mine may have been beaten up over the years.

Either way, they're fun cameras. I just wish I could get that size film for them still.

 

[Frank R]

Is this the camera you are talking about?

 

[Frank R]

I paid $15 for mine last year and later sold it for $30 on Ebay. They are not rare.

A Canadian version might be more collectible but $175 seems very steep.

 

[Removed Account]

Pretty much Frank, the only difference is instead of "Pocket C" on the "The Premo Camera" spot, it said Made in Canada, and the lens had an extra pneumatic metal thingy on the left that didnt seem to do anything. And no holder, that seems like it would match... I wonder how I could get the dealer to knock it down a bunch... He's a nice guy, but he IS charging $35 for a non-functional Rollei TLR without a focus screen... Have you taken any shots with the Premo?

 

[Frank R]

Have you taken any shots with the Premo?

No, I could not get 4x5 to work with it so I dumped it.

There are better cameras out there; I would keep looking.

 

[Hirameagle]

I know this is an old thread, but I just found it and wanted to see if anyone is still out there to talk about the Kodak Pocket Premo C cameras. I have one that my grandfather used back in the early 1900's....I can't pin down the years exactly. It's the 3 1/4 x 5 1/2 version that used glass plates. I have several of the plate holders, a couple of boxes of unused glass plates. At least one of the holders still has unexposed (until I cracked it open) glass plates inside. Inside the back door it only lists one patent date..Oct 20 1903.

It doesn't appear he ever tried to use this with a roll film, or if so, I don't find any film or holder, etc. The frosted glass focusing plate was in the camera, but was broken in two. The little dot on top that some of you referenced is there, but it has no writing or is faded away, etc.

I see many references to these cameras being 3 1/4 x 4 1/4 or some such, but this one is definitely 3 1/4 x 5 1/2.

If you know anything about these or want to ask me anything, please do..

My grandfather was a photographer in the early 1900's (likely in the 1905 - 1925 time frame) in South Alabama. I don't think it was his full time occupation, but I'm not sure of that. He also left me a 5x7 SEROCO (Sears Roebuck) View camera and some holders, etc for that. Also in the stuff he left were 10-12 developed 5x7 glass negatives that I've recently converted to digital pictures.....that was fun and interesting.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Some early Kodak models were made in multiple sizes, with only the number-letter designation differing. For instance, a No. 2 would be a 2 1/2 x 3 1/4 on 120, but the same model in a No. 3A would be the postcard format you have, and a No. 3 would be the 3 1/4 x 4 1/4 (if I've remembered that correctly). Just to make sure everyone was locked in, Kodak's format designations were different from Agfa and Zeiss format designation (a German B2 would be the same as a Kodak No. 2, both 6x9 cm on 120). Even more confusing, in 1903 120 was 6x9 only, and a camera using the same width film for 6x6 cm (2 1/4 x 2 1/4) would have needed 117 film (which was short enough to put only eight frames on a roll, not the twelve we're used to). Manufacturers started merging 117 and 120 as early as the mid-1930s, but you couldn't be certain 120 film would have a 6x6 framing track until after WWII -- so late pre-War designs like my (post-War built from pre-War parts) 532/16 Super Ikonta B were made not to depend on that (the 532/16 uses the 6x9 framing track to start the film, then switches to turns-counter mechanical framing).

That said, J. Lane sells two speeds and spectral ranges of brand new glass plates in a range of sizes, including postcard format that will fit that Premo C. The slow (ISO 3?) plates are blue-sensitive only, like dry plates from the 1870s, while the high speed ones (ISO 25 in daylight) are orthochromatic -- which means both can be handled under red safelight for ease of loading and processing. If you want to use your granddad's old camera, and it's in good physical condition (shutter works, bellows good enough mend, plate holders latch in) you can make a new ground glass easily enough, order some plates, and pretend the Kaiser is still uniting the Germanies.

That size is called "postcard" because it will contact print to the size of an old standard postal picture card dating as far back as the 1860s. Ilford used to sell photo paper in that size, with an actual postcard address, stamp, and writing space on the back.

 

[Hirameagle]

Thanks for the reply, Donald! That's a lot of great info! I know very little about these old cameras and have waited almost too late to learn....! I don't see any number designation on this camera, but I could easily be missing it. However it is definitely the postcard format as you say. I'm amazed that there is enough demand that the glass plates are still produced! IF I were a bit younger and had time and desire to develop that interest, I'd have a go at getting the camera back in shape to shoot, buy some plates and try ti out. Years ago is when I should have tackled that, back when I had my own darkroom and some time to develop the hobby. Just out of curiosity, did people have enlargers to use with glass plates? Obviously contact prints were easily done and I have a little "Eastman Printing Frame", made of wood, that he used to make contact print from the 3 1/4 x 5 1/2 negatives. There may also be one around for 5x7 negatives, I'd have to look.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I wouldn't say "still" demand for glass plates. Svema was the last commercial manufacturer of modern panchromatic plates (mainly used for astronomy), and they closed up (at least the glass plate line) when astronomy went digital -- IIRC their last run was in the early 2000s. Svema (and, before they dropped the product, Kodak) glass plates from the end of the 20th century were panchromatic (might have been ortho versions as well, plus specialty products made for holography), relatively fast (Svema astronomical plates were ISO 100, IIRC), and had fully modern (for the late 20th) emulsions.

J.Lane (a member here, @Nodda Duma ) makes glass plates as you'd have bought them in the 1870s -- his high speed ortho plates are similar to plates that were sold as late as the 1920s, even 1930s, but during that period when "press camera" meant glass plates in a holder that looked much like a modern 4x5 film holder, glass plates would have been ASA 50 to 100 and panchromatic.

 

[Hirameagle]

Oh, misunderstood! I assumed J Lane was a company that was still selling plates. I have some of the glass plate holders for both cameras, one or two of which had plates still in them, apparently never used. At least one of the holders has “Premo” embossed on the black slides that cover the plates in the holders. It’s sort of hard t see, but definitely there.

 

[Nodda Duma]

I do have size 3A plates available (just like *any* size dry plate) as both ASA 2 (early 1880s) and Orthochromatic ASA 25 (~1895). Have several of each in stock through my online store. I’m going to geek out to say that I even recently got in correct-sized light-tight three piece boxes to pack them in, as I have been selling enough of them to do so. Sorry, that sounds like a plug but hopefully it answers your questions — and anyone else who may stumble across this thread in the future looking for 3A info — about availability of that format. It will be available forever (that’s my goal).

I used to shoot this format myself before I (regretfully) sold the kit a couple years ago. Great “widescreen” format for landscapes and group photos. Check your shutter speeds and adjust aperture accordingly.

 

[mr rusty]

I have a Kodak 3A which gets used very occasionally for fun. I believe a plate back was available for it, but I don't have one - wish I did. Here's an earlier thread and a grab from an image from it - the quality of the lens is still very useable! I've modified mine (very reversably) to take 120 film. https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/kodak-3a-first-attempt-paper-negs-looking-for-tips.138946/

 

[Donald Qualls]

There'll come a day -- perhaps this year, perhaps next -- when I'll order in a box or two of the J. Lane ortho plates for my Ideal plate camera. Probably after I finally pin down which plate holders have light leaks...

 

[Hirameagle]

I do have size 3A plates available (just like *any* size dry plate) as both ASA 2 (early 1880s) and Orthochromatic ASA 25 (~1895). Have several of each in stock through my online store. I’m going to geek out to say that I even recently got in correct-sized light-tight three piece boxes to pack them in, as I have been selling enough of them to do so. Sorry, that sounds like a plug but hopefully it answers your questions — and anyone else who may stumble across this thread in the future looking for 3A info — about availability of that format. It will be available forever (that’s my goal).

I used to shoot this format myself before I (regretfully) sold the kit a couple years ago. Great “widescreen” format for landscapes and group photos. Check your shutter speeds and adjust aperture accordingly.

Yes, I visited your site and saw all of the things you offer and the technical information as well! It's really nice that someone is offering this service to those who want to continue using the old camera gear!! I thank you for that!! Years ago, I had a dark room and I should have gotten these old cameras and other gear out and tried to learn to use them then. But I was working full time and doing photography as a side business plus had young children and just didn't do it. Now, while I have time.....day to day....I'm running out of years and energy.....LOL! I'd love to take a few shots with these old cameras, esp to just honor my grandfather, etc but I don't have a long term interest in continuing to use them. That and the time, effort and learning curve to be ready to shoot a few pics (including checking out the holders, bellows, shutter, making new ground glass) is just a little too much! Oh and making a temporary dark room area....LOL! May change my mind, but right now, I think I'll just enjoy learning about the hardware, process, etc. Keep up the good work....I was impressed with all you offer!