Kodak 120 film - backing paper problems - emulsions affected

AgX · Aug 14, 2016

pentaxuser said:
As a matter of curiosity what did you do with the unexposed rolls that were in the problem batches?

I advise Koldak Alaris to sell those batches to Lomography.

MattKing · Aug 14, 2016

AgX said:
I advise Koldak Alaris to sell those batches to Lomography.

Somehow I doubt that Kodak Alaris wants a ghost image of the word "Kodak" appearing in shots on Lomography film.

pentaxuser · Aug 14, 2016

MattKing said:
Thanks for the reply. As a matter of curiosity what did you do with the unexposed rolls that were in the problem batches?

I have a few thoughts about experiments I might do with it (venture into the land of pinhole, try another modification of my 616 camera, etc.). I haven't decided yet.

Thanks for the reply. I realised afterwards that the way I phrased my question made it appear that my curiosity was largely idle and thus unwarranted. What I was trying to find out was whether you were going to risk any of the films from the suspect batches on taking "normal and important" pictures, most of which might be difficult or even impossible to repeat. The problem it seems to me is that even if you can go back and repeat the photographs this costs time, effort and money.

I don't think I'd risk it either which begs the question of why didn't Kodak take the initiative and instruct their retailers to offer a simple exchange via the retailer if any of the batches were sold or better still ask the retailers to return such films before sale, thereby nipping adverse customer reaction in the bud.

No matter now as the Kodak die has been cast for a better or worse solution to the problem

pentaxuser

MattKing · Aug 14, 2016

The problem with Kodak Alaris involving retailers is that Kodak Alaris doesn't even know who the retailers are.

There are one or more levels of distribution between Kodak Alaris and the retailers. There are also significant volumes of films being purchased online internationally.

No retailer in, for example, Singapore, is likely to be willing to accept returns of film purchased from B&H in New York. And the one or more levels of distributors that supply that Singapore store aren't going to be willing to supply the replacement film.

I doubt that Kodak Alaris (or Eastman Kodak) have the resources to service a publicly announced, world wide recall.

pentaxuser · Aug 14, 2016

Good points, Matt. I suppose the moral of the story to some extent is that if you make a mistake then it is better if you can control the solution to the problem completely and have a big enough chest of "rainy day" money to effect an almost instant solution that leaves few if any customers dissatisfied

pentaxuser

John Wiegerink · Aug 14, 2016

MattKing said:
The problem with Kodak Alaris involving retailers is that Kodak Alaris doesn't even know who the retailers are.

There are one or more levels of distribution between Kodak Alaris and the retailers. There are also significant volumes of films being purchased online internationally.

No retailer in, for example, Singapore, is likely to be willing to accept returns of film purchased from B&H in New York. And the one or more levels of distributors that supply that Singapore store aren't going to be willing to supply the replacement film.

I doubt that Kodak Alaris (or Eastman Kodak) have the resources to service a publicly announced, world wide recall.

Matt,
Now I know why Kodak film, in my opinion, is higher priced for what it is. The term you use "levels of distribution" tells it all. Everybody takes a cut of the pie and that jacks the price. What a shame, but nothing I can do about it. Of course if it gets to high I just won't buy anymore. Seems like with the film market shrinking Kodak Alaris would be able to tighten up that wholesale supply train and take a few of those hands out of the pie. Thus, keeping the prices down.

MattKing · Aug 15, 2016

John Wiegerink said:
Matt,
Now I know why Kodak film, in my opinion, is higher priced for what it is. The term you use "levels of distribution" tells it all. Everybody takes a cut of the pie and that jacks the price. What a shame, but nothing I can do about it. Of course if it gets to high I just won't buy anymore. Seems like with the film market shrinking Kodak Alaris would be able to tighten up that wholesale supply train and take a few of those hands out of the pie. Thus, keeping the prices down.

John:
Ilford has to do something similar.
If you want to have film and other materials available in brick and mortar stores around the globe, you need to have importers and distributors between manufacturers and retailers.
In Kodak's case, a lot of "levels of distribution" are due to the fact that they service a variety of different markets - everything from putting consumer films into those drug, grocery and general stores who still sell film to the sorts of distributors who sell chemicals and paper to commercial labs. Different distributors carry different product mixes, and have different minimum order requirements, price points and shipping arrangements.
My favourite local store buys Kodak materials mainly from two different distributors. Those distributors tend to serve different customer types, but there is overlap. My favourite store also buys directly from US retailers, when it is either more economical to do so (even with the costs of importation) or when minimum order requirements make buying from Canadian distributors prohibitive.
Kodak Alaris (and Ilford, and Foma) don't have either the resources or the volume to do worldwide distribution themselves. And in most markets, most individual importers and distributors don't have the resources to service all the different types of customers who may wish to buy product.

AgX · Aug 15, 2016

In the past in Europe the film manufacturers depending on country went either ways, using wholesalers or doing direct business with the retailers,

Poisson Du Jour · Aug 15, 2016

UPDATE: my rolls of T-Max 100 were returned to the store today and replaced with Rollei RPX 100. The fridge has around 150 rolls of the affected batch and the store has had reports of defects (imprints and fogging). They have made the local arm of Kodak Australia aware of the problem and described them as "unresponsive" (!). I was not prepared to take the risk by using any film within the affected batch range, even if it was for peace of mind. Sorted!

AgX · Aug 16, 2016

Does Kodak Australia act as distributor for Kodak Alaris?

Poisson Du Jour · Aug 16, 2016

AgX, I have no idea about that question.

MattKing · Aug 16, 2016

From the Eastman Kodak website:

Kodak in Australia

Kodak (Australasia) Pty. Ltd. is part of the U.S.-based Eastman Kodak Company.

So this is the Australian arm of Eastman Kodak, not Kodak Alaris. They won't have anything to do with still film.

From the Kodak Alaris website, there is a list of contact information, which includes:

DI-ANZService@kodakalaris.com

Kodak Alaris Pty Ltd
2 Domville Ave,
Hawthorn West
Victoria, Australia, 3122
Phone 1-300-252747

Poisson Du Jour · Aug 16, 2016

What!? Arrrrgh!!
I was within a skip 'n jump of that Hawthorn address yesterday when lunching with my niece in Morang Road, just east of the Kodak dig.
Whatever and wherever... I'm over Kodak — there are so many iterations of it...

Athiril · Aug 17, 2016

AgX said:
Does Kodak Australia act as distributor for Kodak Alaris?

No it's IPS (Independent Photo Supplies) that distribute Kodak's products.

MattKing · Aug 17, 2016

Athiril said:
No it's IPS (Independent Photo Supplies) that distribute Kodak's products.

Is there just one distributor in Australia?
In Canada, there are several.

Athiril · Aug 17, 2016

I think it's just IPS, prior to IPS it was Kodak directly. Also from what I recall reps from IPS were hard selling CPAC chemistry to replace Fuji and Kodak chemistry (Despite being Kodak's rep at the time as well) claiming Kodak and Fuji were discontinuing their chemistry.

foen · Aug 21, 2016

I wrote to profilm last week but I dont have any reply yet. : (

Saganich · Oct 1, 2016

I had a 120 roll in my camera where I shot half a roll and it sat for a month before I finished the roll and developed within 48 hours. The first half had the numbers and Kodak imprinted the second half did not. Other rolls that I waited a few weeks to process were affected but rolls I processed within 2 or 3 days were not affected. These are from the same batch and storage before and after exposure are normal dark room temp conditions. It it plausible that delayed processing exacerbates the problem or that the problem is manifest after exposure on the take-up reel?

BrianShaw · Oct 1, 2016

That's a very interesting observation!

Old-N-Feeble · Oct 1, 2016

Hmm... yes, very interesting indeed.

AgX · Oct 2, 2016

Saganich,
How long were your frames in the "to be exposed" position each before you transported them to the take-up spool?
Minutes, hours?

MattKing · Oct 30, 2016

From NWT Ron in this thread: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

NWT Ron said:
Back in August a partially used roll of 120 Ektar 100 was used to photograph the night sky. Having taken my homemade tracking mount out of storage a couple of cameras were mounted on it to check how well it was aligned and how well it tracked the sky. Exposure times were from 5 to 8 minutes, the Ektar was in my Lubitel with the aperture at f4.5. When the scans of the shoots came back from the lab the markings on the film backing paper could be seen on the darker images.

NWT Ron said:
The package I have has 1201 014 10/2016 and it was processed ahead of the expiration date.

Prest_400 · Oct 31, 2016

I've seen online how humidity can affect the film, and seemingly not only imprints the characters but also the texture of the paper which may be a slight difference. Could it be that humidity+heat just accelerates this process with all film?

I tend to keep exposed film unprocessed up to a month at times, just to send batches to the lab instead of individual rolls. Didn't have a problem but I haven't shot either Tmax nor Ektar yet, just portra.

MattKing · Oct 31, 2016

Prest_400 said:
I've seen online how humidity can affect the film, and seemingly not only imprints the characters but also the texture of the paper which may be a slight difference. Could it be that humidity+heat just accelerates this process with all film

Yes.
Although up until relatively recently, Kodak had a good handle on how to minimize the problem. And then they and/or their supplier changed the backing paper and/or the ink ......

JoshElchin · Nov 2, 2016

I am new to this post but I am glad that I have found it due to having the exact same problem recently with 3 rolls of 120 Kodak Ektar 100 about a month ago. All images have the imprinted backing paper wording on them, some more noticeable than others but will be contacting Kodak. I am glad that it is not just me and some mistake I made because previously I never had a problem with Ektar.

Kodak 120 film - backing paper problems - emulsions affected

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