Kodachrome Storage

PKM-25 · Jul 25, 2006

I have a chance to get 400 rolls of 64, that are frozen, batched 9/2005 for a great price. This will bring my total for this project up to around 700 rolls.

While I really want to keep the 25 speed frozen, how would refrigeration of the 400 rolls of 64 be if the film is dated as such?

I plan on shooting all of it within the next 3 years.

naturephoto1 · Jul 25, 2006

Though keeping the film in the refrigerator may be OK, freezing it would be much better to maintain the film and slow down the degradation of the film.

One of the biggest concerns for film storage though not frequently mentioned is Gamma Rays. Gamma Rays will pass through basically anything (short of I forgot how many feet of concrete, lead, Zirconium, etc.). The longer the film storage, the greater the possibility of these rays passing through the film.

Rich

Konical · Jul 25, 2006

Good Evening, PKM,

Go for it if you have the space. I don't know about the availability or cost of Kodachrome processing in the future, but if the price of the film is a good deal, I wouldn't worry at all about film so recently out-dated, especially since it's been frozen. (Remember that Kodachrome, unlike E-6 films, has no color in it; color is supplied when it is processed.)If you don't have enough space, let me know; I'll be glad to relieve you of the burden of too much film!

Konical

PKM-25 · Jul 25, 2006

Actually, the freezer I am using is lined with airport X-ray film bags. They are lead so I know it will help a bit.

As for the film, I wonder if I should not just get all 670 from him, he wants $1.00 a roll......

As for the processing, I am using grant money to reserve the chemistry ahead of time from Dwaynes in KS. That is thousands.

naturephoto1 · Jul 25, 2006

PKM-25 said:
Actually, the freezer I am using is lined with airport X-ray film bags. They are lead so I know it will help a bit.

Snip

Gamma Rays will go right through the lead lined X-Ray film bags like the lead isn't there. The film or prints may need some retouching (perhaps through Photoshop) if Gamma Rays go through the film.

Rich

Dave Parker · Jul 25, 2006

If you don't, please tell me where, I would buy it, even if I had to buy another freezer to store it in, a buck a roll is a heck of a buy on this particular film and if you have a grant to ensure you can get it processed, I don't see where there is a hard choice, you can pick a freezer up at home depot that will hold this much film for $200 or less, I just picked a used 25 cubic foot upright up the other day to increase storage capacity, it was used, but I only paid $50 for it from a friend of mine...

Dave

PS, Lead is not going to stop Gamma rays from getting to the film.

PKM-25 · Jul 25, 2006

Hmmm....Not what I read:

"Protection from gamma rays can be obtained using a sheet of iron that is a 1/2 inch thick. This kind of shielding will block only 50% of 1 million electron volts of gamma rays. We can also protect ourselves from gamma rays with 4 inches of water. Lead provides the most protection from gamma rays. A 1/4 of an inch lead absorbs all the gamma ray exposure."

http://www.stmary.ws/physics/gamm_1.htm

They are 24 exposure rolls, but that is still a really good price.

As this project might be done in 3 years or less, depending on when Kodak discontiues KR, I might be OK anyway......?

Markok765 · Jul 25, 2006

My photo store doesnt store kodacrome in the fridge(must be why its cheaper than velvia.

Craig · Jul 25, 2006

If you keep it frozen it should be fine. Kodachrome that is warm stored or a fair bit past its expiry date (say 5 years) goes magenta and quite a noticable loss of D Max. You won't be able to get blacks anymore. If it's been frozen and has an 05 date you should be fine.

PKM-25 · Jul 25, 2006

670 more rolls...I should just take the plunge, I can always sell some off to APUG members.

PKM-25 · Jul 25, 2006

Craig said:
If you keep it frozen it should be fine. Kodachrome that is warm stored or a fair bit past its expiry date (say 5 years) goes magenta and quite a noticable loss of D Max. You won't be able to get blacks anymore. If it's been frozen and has an 05 date you should be fine.

Even if it is frozen? While most of my KM-25 is 2002 or later, I have some 25 from 96, I hope it is not magenta and D-Max-less.

Dave Parker · Jul 25, 2006

PKM-25 said:
Hmmm....Not what I read:

"Protection from gamma rays can be obtained using a sheet of iron that is a 1/2 inch thick. This kind of shielding will block only 50% of 1 million electron volts of gamma rays. We can also protect ourselves from gamma rays with 4 inches of water. Lead provides the most protection from gamma rays. A 1/4 of an inch lead absorbs all the gamma ray exposure."

http://www.stmary.ws/physics/gamm_1.htm

They are 24 exposure rolls, but that is still a really good price.

As this project might be done in 3 years or less, depending on when Kodak discontiues KR, I might be OK anyway......?

PKM,

Hmm, had not read that particular page before, anyway, if your freezing it and plan on your project being done in about three years, I can't imagine you would have any problems with the film.

Dave

naturephoto1 · Jul 25, 2006

PKM-25 said:
Hmmm....Not what I read:

"Protection from gamma rays can be obtained using a sheet of iron that is a 1/2 inch thick. This kind of shielding will block only 50% of 1 million electron volts of gamma rays. We can also protect ourselves from gamma rays with 4 inches of water. Lead provides the most protection from gamma rays. A 1/4 of an inch lead absorbs all the gamma ray exposure."

http://www.stmary.ws/physics/gamm_1.htm

snip

I stand corrected. This source from Wikipedia indicates that 1 cm (.4 inches) of lead reduces the intensity of Gamma Rays by 50%:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_ray

Rich

PKM-25 · Jul 25, 2006

If I get this stuff, it is going to weigh close to 60 lbs shipped. What are the risks of it taking 3-4 days to travel from the East Coast? Fed-X two day or faster would cost a bloody fortune.

I might have to secure the purchase and wait until it is coooler in the Fall to have him ship it.

Craig · Jul 25, 2006

PKM-25 said:
Even if it is frozen? While most of my KM-25 is 2002 or later, I have some 25 from 96, I hope it is not magenta and D-Max-less.

This is some PKM from 2000, although warm stored (20 C) from 2001 to 2005 when I shot and processed it. It had gotten lost in a desk drawer and then I found it and shot it.

PKM-25 · Jul 25, 2006

Craig said:
This is some PKM from 2000, although warm stored (20 C) from 2001 to 2005 when I shot and processed it. It had gotten lost in a desk drawer and then I found it and shot it.

Ouch! That is really bad. Like I said, all my stuff is and has been frozen. The 96 might be the clincher.

PKM-25 · Jul 25, 2006

Holy cr@p!

I just got a donation of 70 rolls of KM-25!!!

This is going really, really well.

Bill Mitchell · Jul 25, 2006

I sold my last brick of PKM last year in anticipation that processing would be be discontinued very soon. Also, the quality of the processing ain't what she used to be. I hate to say it, but I'd pass.

PKM-25 · Jul 25, 2006

Bill Mitchell said:
I sold my last brick of PKM last year in anticipation that processing would be be discontinued very soon. Also, the quality of the processing ain't what she used to be. I hate to say it, but I'd pass.

Any indications on when you think Dwaynes might be stopping it? I am looking at giving them about $6,000 in grant money to secure the chemistry.

Also, did Dwaynes do the processing for you?

This project is the most important one I will ever do. It has to do the film justice, once it is gone, it is literally history.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

dmr · Jul 25, 2006

Markok765 said:
My photo store doesnt store kodacrome in the fridge ...

At least you can buy it locally. I don't think there's any over-the-counter Kodachrome within a 500 mile radius of me. I have to order from B&H or Adorama.

jmailand · Jul 25, 2006

PKM-25 said:
Any indications on when you think Dwaynes might be stopping it? I am looking at giving them about $6,000 in grant money to secure the chemistry.

I got 4 exposed and 6 unexposed rolls in the freezer right know. They better be able to process the stuff. I'm going to send out the 4 exposed rolls this week, I hope it comes back.

James,

PKM-25 · Jul 25, 2006

jmailand said:
I got 4 exposed and 6 unexposed rolls in the freezer right know. They better be able to process the stuff. I'm going to send out the 4 exposed rolls this week, I hope it comes back.

James,

They said that they will be able to process the film for up to 18 months after the announcement of the discontinuance of the film by Kodak. But I have suspicions about Kodak and what they are really up to so with over 1,000 rolls of this stuff, I have to buy my own lab basically.

Ronald Moravec · Jul 27, 2006

You are assuming processing will be available. It is already difficult.

Freeze it for best results

Earl Dunbar · Jul 27, 2006

Processing Kodachrome has always been difficult. The only thing that has changed has been access and convenience.

PeterB · Jul 31, 2006

naturephoto1 said:
I stand corrected. This source from Wikipedia indicates that 1 cm (.4 inches) of lead reduces the intensity of Gamma Rays by 50%:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_ray

Rich

Lead lined bags will protect the film from any Terrestrial background Gamma radiation, however they won't protect film from the vast majority of Cosmic radiation.

Did you know that Elle Macpherson stuck her baby in a lead lined cot because she thought it would protect her baby from cosmic rays?! (see [1]). I suspect that Elle and her muscle bound partner (carrying the cot) could benefit from a bit of physics.

Different cosmic rays have different energies and the rarer more energetic ones aren't stopped by the amount of lead you would want to fill your freezer with (let alone a babys cot!). Lead is good at stopping X-rays and gamma rays, but not cosmic rays. From [2], we read "a substantial proportion of the cosmic radiation detected at sea level could penetrate over 1m of lead."

Therefore, there isn't any reasonably thin or lightweight substance which offers meaningful protection against cosmic rays.

Kodak discusses the effects of ambient background radiation here [3]

The advice they give is "The only way to determine the specific effect of ambient-background radiation is to make actual tests or measurements by placing a detector in the location where the film is stored." As is the case with most posts I've seen, Kodak tends to make generalisations about film storage. I suggest this is the case because they wouldn't have conducted the necessary experiments required to support specific recommendations.

One more thing, if you are going to be opening the freezer up often and you are really want to go to the n'th degree to protect from radiation, store the film in an air tight bag. I'll post more details later if anyone is interested.

How long will the film last last? I suggest a nominal upper limit of about 32 years (for freshly frozen film) due to the chemical degradation; however I can't predict variations in effects from cosmic rays. To guard against this, always test your frozen film before shooting something memorable.

regards
Peter

[1] http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/mndwebpages/macpherson%20make.s%20lead%20lined%20cot%20to%20protect%20baby
[2] http://www.prestoncoll.ac.uk/cosmic/cascade/cascades.htm
[3] http://wwwuk.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/technical/storage_cond.jhtml

Kodachrome Storage

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