Kodabromide remembered … and revisited

Waiting to board

H
Waiting to board

  • Tel
  • May 5, 2025
  • 0
  • 0
  • 11
Tomato

A
Tomato

  • 4
  • 0
  • 49
Cool

A
Cool

  • 5
  • 0
  • 60
Coquitlam River BC

D
Coquitlam River BC

  • 6
  • 2
  • 52
Mayday celebrations

A
Mayday celebrations

  • 2
  • 3
  • 100

Recent Classifieds

Forum statistics

Threads
197,566
Messages
2,761,158
Members
99,405
Latest member
Dave in Colombia
Recent bookmarks
0

David Lyga

Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2007
Messages
3,445
Location
Philadelphia
Format
35mm
Every once in a while I manage to snag some expired film / paper, or chemicals, at an estate sale. Recently, I got some boxes of paper that were quite old, the newest being from the 80s, the oldest being a box of 250 sheets of Kodabromide 8.5 X 11 inches, SWFB (remember THAT?), with an expiration date of March 1969. The price that had been written on the box back in the 60s was $14.

I started doing darkroom work when I was 14, in 1964, and religiously used only ONE paper, Kodabromide, F surface, single weight, fiber. That was the standard back then. This recently acquired box of Kodabromide matched this standard precisely. The fog level of this acqired paper is surprisingly low when considered in a relative sense. When fully developed, the ‘coin test’ indicates a low to medium fog level, one that can be readily mitigated, indeed, even removed entirely, with restrainer in the developer and, maybe, a post fix dip in dilute Farmer’s Reducer. Thus doing, it acquires perfection.

But, processing Kodabromide brought back memories that had clearly faded in the intervening half century. As compared with today’s RC papers: 1) Kodabromide requires more development time to achieve full black; 2) while Harman dares to state (and be CORRECT, also) that a 45 second fix time is wholly adequate for their Multigrade Deluxe RC, a full minute for Kodabromide followed by a brief rinse was visually inadequate, because under strong light, the prints would slowly gain some density (NOT ‘dry down’) with long exposure to such bright light. Again, a (this time) room light ‘coin test’ proved this subtle occurence. In fact, I distinctly remember reading Kodak’s admonition to fix such paper for 5 to ten minutes. And, to augment this, the standard fixer used back then, Kodak Fixer Powder with Hardener, was NOT to be diluted for paper. It was to be used at the same strength for both film and paper!; 3) finally, Kodabromide was always optimistic in its grading: a ‘2’ was always closer to a real 1.5 as I remember. Yes, even then, Kodabromide was a bit lower in contrast than was a similar Ilford grade. Agfa had its own verbal grading system, along with the numbers, but Agfa’s grade 3 was indicated by the translated word ‘normal’.

I was brought up to obey, not deviate from the norm, and that inculcated pre-requisite did not stop with my parents’ commands. I ‘obeyed’ the mandate that grade 2 was to be always used unless the negative was really fouled up with either exposure or development. But I kept noticing that my usual prints, although quite good, often were lacking in ‘punch’. So routine was my youthful reticence to deflect from status quo that, although secretly wanting to try, say, Medalist, or grade 3, I ended up scoffing that desire because I was more afraid of getting addicted to something ‘unusual’! I was too tethered to redundancy and reactionary thinking to dare to deviate (or even ‘to think outside of the box’!) Thus, I married Kodabromde, grade 2, glossy, and did not deviate from that 'requirement' until my mid-twenties allowed a bolder and more personalized mindset (and, boy, did it ever, in other life matters as well).

But, the technical data I gave above for Kodabromide was data well remembered with this revisit. I would like to hear if others, older ones, have witnessed such subtle changes in paper over the decades. – David Lyga
 
Last edited by a moderator:

snapguy

Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2014
Messages
1,287
Location
California d
Format
35mm
right

You are right on the money. Kodabromide was great stuff and many a newspaper used it as their go-to darkroom paper. I remember once when a manager wanted to save some money and went to a "furrin" brand. I was a lowly darkroom worker at the time, (hoping to get out and meet starlets and be a real photographer but stuck at the moment in the dark.) Anyway, I told the manager that the off brand stuff he was trying out would have maybe 100 of the 500 sheets in the box of 8x10 paper that were wrinkled and not good enough for our purpose. I never saw one sheet of Kodabromide that was not perfect when it came out of the box.
 

bdial

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
Messages
7,443
Location
North East U.S.
Format
Multi Format
I embraced the "…or grade 3" part of that "expose and develop your negs to print well on grade 2 paper" rule. Even though I mostly print on VC paper now it's hard to shake thinking in terms of fixed grades.
I used a lot of Kodabromide for personal work, but my favorite was Agfa Brovira. I do miss single weight papers terribly.

Like Snapguy, I exposed thousands of sheets of Kodabromide in a commercial DR setting, and I have never seen a flawed sheet of the stuff.
 
OP
OP
David Lyga

David Lyga

Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2007
Messages
3,445
Location
Philadelphia
Format
35mm
Yes, bdial, another 'remembrance' was how flimsy that single weight paper was in the developer! But we managed to process without wrinkles, didn't we? And, the cost was breathtaking, at $14 for 250 sheets of 8.5 x 11! - David Lyga
 

bdial

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
Messages
7,443
Location
North East U.S.
Format
Multi Format
It is easy to miss buying a 250 sheet box of paper for 14 bucks. OTH, a computer with the capabilities of an ordinary smart phone from these days would have been breathtaking in 1969, and probably worth multi-millions.
 

Rich Ullsmith

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2007
Messages
1,159
Format
Medium Format
Stuff seems to have pretty good shelf life, too. I'm playing around with a $2 junk sale box of 8X10X100, no fog I can see. That is pretty cheap entertainment.
 

nworth

Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2005
Messages
2,228
Location
Los Alamos,
Format
Multi Format
Nostalgia is great. Everything is better when remembered. I have been able to see some classic photos from the thirties and forties that were printed on Kodabromide. While the pictures were classically great, the paper did not really produce as good an image as can be obtained by printing the same negatives on modern paper. (Although that has problems too. Papers are designed for the films currently available, and printing old negatives on modern papers to get truly superb images can be very challenging.) Of course, Kodabromide changed and, for the most part, improved over time, and in the last versions it really was a modern paper. David made quite a point about the processing differences between Kodabromide and the modern Ilford papers. He was quite right, These papers were very different.
 

Renato Tonelli

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 26, 2007
Messages
1,458
Location
New York,NY & Pontremoli
Format
Multi Format
Kodabromide and Azo were my only papers when I started doing photography in High School. When I had some extra cash I would buy the Kodabromide in DW (always F surface).
 
OP
OP
David Lyga

David Lyga

Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2007
Messages
3,445
Location
Philadelphia
Format
35mm
Yeah, nworth, you also noticed the processing difference.

It kind of makes one hesitate when one is tempted to scoff at the long fixer times recommended decades ago. - David Lyga
 
Last edited by a moderator:

cmacd123

Member
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
4,302
Location
Stittsville, Ontario
Format
35mm
I recall the first demonstration of "Ilfospeed" at a trade show and my Jaw dropped as how fast they were churning out prints. both with the Super duper Ilford machine as well as in trays. I saved the sample 8X10 they handed out and it was real, found it 20 years later and still perfect. That was an inflection point in darkroom work, and so to use Kodabromide one must transport oneself to the mindset of that era, and rethink everything you have gotten spoiled with with the modern Multigrade papers that followed on from Ilfospeed.
 

Photo Engineer

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
29,018
Location
Rochester, NY
Format
Multi Format
Well, the formulas for Brovira and Kodabromide still exist for the adventurous. Both can be re-created. However a smart phone in the '60s would not function due to lack of infrastructure. So, it would be a piece of glass and plastic.

The slower fix rate, wash rate and development rate are all due to the formulas used then. Today, we should not use them, but there are replacements that work well enough. In fact, '90s Kodabromide, the last made, developed, washed and fixed just like modern papers.

PE
 

blindpig

Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2013
Messages
123
Location
Nixa,Mo.
Format
Multi Format
I worked with Kodabromide starting in 1959 and still have prints made back then which look good.Sometime as polycontrast papers were becoming the" popular way to go",Kodak changed Kodabromide(I think less silver) because the great blue/blacks were gone that had been evident earlier and never were found on the polycontrasr papers or any papers from then on, IMHO.
Don
 

M Carter

Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2013
Messages
2,147
Location
Dallas, TX
Format
Medium Format
Funny this came up - I just scored 100 sheets 8x10, F3, single weight. And man - they really meant SINGLE weight, didn't they??

This is some crazy paper for lith - seems to exhaust the dev. very quickly. But has a very lovely texture when you get it right.

attachment.php
attachment.php
 

Attachments

  • 8x10b.jpg
    8x10b.jpg
    112.7 KB · Views: 315
  • stacks.jpg
    stacks.jpg
    125.6 KB · Views: 296

Photo Engineer

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
29,018
Location
Rochester, NY
Format
Multi Format
I worked with Kodabromide starting in 1959 and still have prints made back then which look good.Sometime as polycontrast papers were becoming the" popular way to go",Kodak changed Kodabromide(I think less silver) because the great blue/blacks were gone that had been evident earlier and never were found on the polycontrasr papers or any papers from then on, IMHO.
Don

Cadmium was used in Kodabromide, Medalist and Opal papers as one of the toners to get good tone and blacks. There was no substantial change in silver level. All paper is limited in Dmax to about a value of 2.2 due to the nature of reflection. Some papers, like Azo, appear to have great blacks, but it is tone. They really have pretty poor Dmax, but broad shoulder curves accentuate the blacks.

PE
 

M Carter

Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2013
Messages
2,147
Location
Dallas, TX
Format
Medium Format
Photo Engineer -

The Kodabromide is one thing -as a Lith fan, it's more of a curiosity... but are you saying Brovira could be recreated in, say, a liquid emulsion?

Not that.... is a badass lith paper!!!

attachment.php
 

Attachments

  • scan2.jpg
    scan2.jpg
    64.1 KB · Views: 282

Photo Engineer

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
29,018
Location
Rochester, NY
Format
Multi Format
Brovira can be recreated. An incorrect formula is published in Glafkides and was also published with those errors on APUG about 3 years ago. I have found the corrected formulas for all grades of Brovira, but it will take an experienced emulsion maker to re-create them. They are so old, they were made with gelatin types no longer available.

Bottom line - YES.

PE
 

M Carter

Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2013
Messages
2,147
Location
Dallas, TX
Format
Medium Format
I'm also a big fan of Agfa MCC 118. Beautiful paper.

Maybe someday I can hire a chef to make me a batch...
 
Joined
Dec 10, 2009
Messages
6,297
Format
Multi Format
If I remember correctly, the only time I used Kodabromide was the old postcard paper grade 3. It's beautiful stuff. I might have a partial box in my darkroom.
 

Xmas

Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2006
Messages
6,398
Location
UK
Format
35mm RF
I still have some Bromesco.
I'd not use hardner on paper even with HCA washing was difficult.
64 seems like yesterday.
 
Photrio.com contains affiliate links to products. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links.
To read our full affiliate disclosure statement please click Here.

PHOTRIO PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Ilford ADOX Freestyle Photographic Stearman Press Weldon Color Lab Blue Moon Camera & Machine
Top Bottom