Kiev 4A Rangefinder or ?

Hi, I'd like to hear from owners of the Kiev 4A as I am thinking of buying one as a carry-around with a 28 or 35mm lens. I've read of the light leak, frame overlaps, and other problems, but there's always two sides to every story. I was wondering if anyone has had good experiences with one of these. There seem to be people out there who really love them in spite of their idiosyncracies.

If not...

If anyone has suggestions as to a solid small, cheap and solid rangefinder, I'm all ears. I had a Konica Auto S-2, which was a nice camera, but it was too big for me and I sold it.

Thanks!
Bill
http://www.crashburnlove.com

These can be good cameras. Like any cameras (and more often than Japanese and German cameras, because of the priorities made by the factories in which they were made), they can be problematic.

The best way to get a good one is to buy one from a good source (e.g. http://www.okvintagecamera.com) or to buy one from wherever and get it professionally CLA'd by someone who knows what he is doing.

If you get a good Kiev it will serve you a long time - but don't be frugal. Spend the extra to get a good one.

If the Konica is too big for you, the Kiev will be too. It's not as tall, but the "Contax grip" can be tough on small hands. How about a Fed-2? Or, for even smaller cameras, there are the Canonets and the Olympus RC and RD cameras. Or you can get really tiny with an Olympus XA.

I have three Kiev 4's, which are the same as the 4A except that they have a built in light meter. One has a light leak which I have not been able to repair. The other two are fabulous cameras. The available lenses are very sharp, especially the Helios 103 (55mm) and the Jupiter 9 (85mm). I especially like these cameras for low light work because the viewfinder is bright and because you can take hand-held shots with the 55mm lens at 1/25.

You should be aware that there was a later model of the Kiev 4 called the Kiev 4M(with meter) or AM (without meter). My understanding is that these were not as well made as the earlier ones.

Hope this helps.

The Kiev 4's are the most well made of the russian 35mm rangefinders. The only down side is that the number of lenses is fairly limited.

If you want to use a 35mm Russian lens there are plenty of them. If you wish to use a 28mm Russian lens they..28mm f6 Orion.. are very hard to find.

I have just (yesterday) bought an Olympus XA2 from ebay for the bargain price of £3.19 (under $6). I know it's not the XA with a proper rangefinder but I tend to scale focus with rangefinders more often than I use the rangefinder anyway.
I intend to use this as a carry around all the time camera.


Steve.

Bill
They are nice cameras but may have been neglected or bodged. The Ru lens are pretty good and are cheap, you will be amazed by results from 1st film. The earlier pre '72 cameras have a nicer finish, and a small price premium.
The shutter can snap ribbons. The frame spacing tends to be variable and sprocket holes can be ripped in extreme case, the slipping clutch does not slip enough, or there may be wear in the gears. The slide mounting robots can normally cope. The internal light baffles (black paper and string) as well as the external light baffle (black string), can detach, and leave light leaks. The rangefinder can un-adjust itself. etc., ... Bit if you are handy all these can be self repaired, the cameras are built to be maintained easily.
Try and find a 40.5mm screw in lens hood front camera shop junk box, or buy a 40.5-49mm step ring, and a 49mm hood, this will protect the lens front surface and filter ring.
If you have a dog or wife you may have to leave the ERC out of doors as the Ru leather cure process will upset.

I have a Kiev 3a that I simply love. The point about lenses is good one but the older Zeiss Contax lenses will also fit. My 3a is almost never without my Sonnar 1.5/50.

They are not small cameras, It is not as tall as the Konica S2 but it is heavier and almost as wide and deep. I can not just drop it into the pocket of my jacket like I can my Leica IIIF or a Zorki or Fed 1.

If you find a good one, they are a joy to use, nice balance, quiet shutter.

kmack said:

quiet shutter.

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For the kiev 4, the top speed on the shutter is 1/1250 sec. A rarity on cameras of its period.

kmack said:

They are not small cameras, It is not as tall as the Konica S2 but it is heavier and almost as wide and deep. I can not just drop it into the pocket of my jacket like I can my Leica IIIF or a Zorki or Fed 1.

If you find a good one, they are a joy to use, nice balance, quiet shutter.

Click to expand...

Thanks to everyone for the replies... it's really gotten me interested. The lack of lenses is not a problem for me, I only shoot with a wide angle, either 35 or 28. As for the size, that might be an issue, though minor. Maybe I should look at Zorkis and Feds as well. Besides, in my opinion, Zorki might just be the coolest name ever for a camera. It would be worth it to carry one just for the name, never mind the quality - though I hear some people like them too. So if anyone else reading this thread has comments on Z's or Fed's, please feel free to add on.
Thanks again,
Bill

If you are trying to stay small, the FED 2 is a good bet. Nice combined rangefinder and viewfinder (by early 50s standards), long rangefinder base, and about the size of a FED or Zorki 1 or screwmount Leica. The FED 3 and 4, and the Zorki 4 and 6 are nice, but taller.

If you want an RF with interchangeable lenses which easily fits the pocket, go for a Zorki or FED. Zorki-1 and FED-1 are the most pocketable- get one if the lack of speeds slower than 1/20 (or 1/25) don't bother you. Anyway, the slow speeds aren't often used anyway; 1/20-1/500 is the most used.

FED and Zorki are also easier to repair. Shutter curtains and ribbons, though made of cloth can be replaced with equivalents. They are less complicated in design, hence easier to fix.

Avoid Kiev with s/n above 72xxxx. The best Kiev I have are from the 1960s. Build and quality are as good as German cameras from the period. The worst Kiev I had was a Kiev-4aM from 1983. Broke after 2 rolls.

Jay

Lowenburg said:

So if anyone else reading this thread has comments on Z's or Fed's, please feel free to add on.
Thanks again,
Bill

Click to expand...

I have a few FSU RF's. The Kiev's are my favorite, followed by the Zorki 1, the lowly (and very cheap) Fed 3, the Zorki 4 (buildt like tractor). I was never able to bond with the Fed 2, but it is a very useable camera. The most surprising camera for me was the Fed 3, it handles particularly well and with a collapseable lens it is pocketable in larger pockets. The Fed 3 looks and feels cheap but I consistanly get good results with it.

Gerald Koch said:

For the kiev 4, the top speed on the shutter is 1/1250 sec. A rarity on cameras of its period.

Click to expand...

All the Kiev, not just the Kiev-4, until sometime in its production had a 1/1250 top shutter speed. However, this was best an optimistic speed. Rarely was this speed ever achieved, and even Kiev realised this. So around 1972 or later, they changed this to 1/1000, which more closely described the actual speed which the shutter was firing at.

The 1250 speed was inherited from the Kiev's ancestor, the original Contax II/III. Contax always had this top speed on their RF, including their postwar IIa/IIIa incarnations. Perhaps the vertically traversing shutter allowed for shorter and faster exposures; but in practice, it may be really closer to 1/1000 or even a bit slower.

On my humble opinion, early Kievs (II - III) easily outperform all FEDs and Zorkis taken together I don't feel that Kiev IV is built really all this well, and the takeup spool is VERY fragile there, so I would recommend an older version. 1/1250 speed on these shutters, by the way, can be easily achieved during CLA - one has to tune the curtain spring tension, and that would give a right speed.

A good Kiev III and the set of "white" lenses (in aluminium barrels) can do miracles, believe me. All the white lenses were assembled from the lens elements captured in Germany, so it's in fact echt Zeiss. All the "pros" on Red Square worked only with earlier Kievs, in any weather. And Helios-103 can be a surprising addition - a small, very sharp Biotar copy.

Cheers, Zhenya

I've been reading about all the various models on this guy's great website,

http://www.geocities.com/fzorkis/index.html

Now my head is spinning, and, of course, I'd love to own a couple of these babies. (Take at look at the link and see the pictures of cameras he has reconditioned - very beautiful work.)

Does anyone have recommendations as to reliable dealers for Kievs, Feds, and Zorkis?
I was looking at some of the prices on Ebay and in some cases the shipping is more than the "buy now" price!

Again, thanks for your suggestions.
Bill

Lowenburg said:

I've been reading about all the various models on this guy's great website,

http://www.geocities.com/fzorkis/index.html

Now my head is spinning, and, of course, I'd love to own a couple of these babies. (Take at look at the link and see the pictures of cameras he has reconditioned - very beautiful work.)

Does anyone have recommendations as to reliable dealers for Kievs, Feds, and Zorkis?
I was looking at some of the prices on Ebay and in some cases the shipping is more than the "buy now" price!

Again, thanks for your suggestions.
Bill

Click to expand...

"Alex-photo" and "Kubanoid" on eBay (from the Ukraine and Russia respectively) are two of several good sellers there. If you prefer one from the US, you could try FEDKA (www.fedka.com). They are all reliable and honest sellers. They also know the cameras they sell.

If you ever get smitten by a Zorki-1 or FED-1, you might want to see this site
http://jay.fedka.com

ZorkiKat said:

All the Kiev, not just the Kiev-4, until sometime in its production had a 1/1250 top shutter speed. However, this was best an optimistic speed. Rarely was this speed ever achieved, and even Kiev realised this. So around 1972 or later, they changed this to 1/1000, which more closely described the actual speed which the shutter was firing at.

Click to expand...

This is not exclusively a problem with the Kiev. The top speed of most mechanical shutters is inaccurate. But, having a top speed of 1/1250 or 1/1000 sec allows the next lower speed 1/500 sec to be accurate.

If anyone has suggestions as to a solid small, cheap and solid rangefinder, I'm all ears. I had a Konica Auto S-2, which was a nice camera, but it was too big for me and I sold it.
Thanks!
Bill

Since the other FSU camera options have been put forth, I'd like to suggest the Bessa R. Excellent used bodies should be available for $175. The viewfinder size and brightness cannot be matched by any of the afore mentioned FSU cameras, and it has a built in frame for 35mm; you will have to use an external 35mm finder on the FSU cams.. Wide angle (and all other) LTM lens options are much greater than for the Kiev.

Fed, Zorki, Voigtlander, Leica ... All compatible lenses.

frank said:

Since the other FSU camera options have been put forth, I'd like to suggest the Bessa R. Excellent used bodies should be available for $175. The viewfinder size and brightness cannot be matched by any of the afore mentioned FSU cameras, and it has a built in frame for 35mm; you will have to use an external 35mm finder on the FSU cams.. Wide angle (and all other) LTM lens options are much greater than for the Kiev.

Click to expand...

Having just shopped for a used RF (my first) --- I would tend to agree - any Leica screw or bayonet mount body would be a good choice - screw mount offering what appears to be a wide variety of lenses for not very much.

Fed, Zorki from the FSU can usually be had in great shape for <USD100 an usually include a lens
Voigtlander (Cosina) RF's, used under USD200 for the body
Older non M leicas are ususally under USD400 for the body
I think new most RF's (Leica, Zeiss, Voigtlander, Rollei) are $500-$5000

From my gleanings, you can get ANY lens screw mount or M bayonet (and can get an adapter so you can use either) from the FSU, Zeiss, Leica, Cosina/Voigtlander that will work. Very large interchangeable system for any of 'em. Of course, I am sure actual expierience anyone had could blow it away since the devil is always in the details.

*Note on Kiev (I bought a Kiev 4A appx. 1 week ago and am waiting for it to arrive)-
I work with a few expat (ex-SU)Russian folks, and they told me Keiv cameras are redone pre-war German Contax - so the lens choice is limited (pretty much FSU lenses made by Kiev and others) but the design is proven. According to these folks, this was probably one of the more expensive and well built 35mm camera in Russia ("not everybody could afford one easily"). It was made by a defense company who was ordered to produce some consumer goods - apparently all factories had a 'duty' to produce at least *some* consumer goods. Because of their focus, inherent high overhead, and attention to quality for their primary goods, military factories were allowed to produce something a little bit exclusive which would not be allowed of purely commercial firms since the attitude was that they would rather have 5000 people with a mediocre camera than 500 people with a great one. Mind you that the quality controls in a military firm was high by USSR standards, but nowhere near a US, German or Japanese factory.

Having said that, they all had Zorki's and Fed's and usually still had them and used them for film shooting. They all liked the cameras and when I asked them which one to get said that if it was made before 1975 or so all were pretty good provided they had been gone over at least once. After 1975 quality declined in almost everything, though a lot of good cameras were still made.

Interesting note - one guy said a family was pretty lucky to have 1 good camera - and that the whole notion of "collecting" something was not afforable or practical - I suspect it was frowned upon by authorities if the items were pricey like photo equipment though I didn't ask them that.

Very interesting developments in the thread, I am learning so much! I like that the conversation is broadening out into related areas. As for me, my interest in learning about and using these cameras has really little to do with getting the "best" Leica or Contax clone. I just like the way the darn things look and that they are rangefinders, so my purchases will be based on that. As long as they can take a picture it's fine with me. So the kind of information shared by bromo above is, to me, really fascinating.

Hey, since some of you guys work on these cameras, can anyone recommend a list of tools I'd need to work on them myself? I figure at these prices, why not get a couple of parts bodies and take 'em apart to see how they work? If you have any recommendations along these lines, please post them!

Thanks,
Bill

Bromo33333 said:

From my gleanings, you can get ANY lens screw mount or M bayonet (and can get an adapter so you can use either) from the FSU, Zeiss, Leica, Cosina/Voigtlander that will work. Very large interchangeable system for any of 'em. Of course, I am sure actual expierience anyone had could blow it away since the devil is always in the details.

.

Click to expand...

Some LTM lenses may not work with FSU FED or Zorki. These cameras used a sloped-, teardrop-, or wedge- shape RF sensor which may catch on some lenses with tongue-shaped RF coupling. Lenses like Hektor 135, Canon 135/100, Summaron 35, etc should not be used on FED or Zorki cameras. At best the lens camming will not coincide with the RF sensor; at worst the tongue shaped cam will catch on the RF sensor tip and cause very serious damage.

See bottom of this page
http://www.jay.fedka.com/index_files/Page400.htm

Jay

I hear a lot about soviet made cameras. Can someone post a couple of your favourite pictures captured by this camera please.

ZorkiKat said:

Some LTM lenses may not work with FSU FED or Zorki. These cameras used a sloped-, teardrop-, or wedge- shape RF sensor which may catch on some lenses with tongue-shaped RF coupling. Lenses like Hektor 135, Canon 135/100, Summaron 35, etc should not be used on FED or Zorki cameras. At best the lens camming will not coincide with the RF sensor; at worst the tongue shaped cam will catch on the RF sensor tip and cause very serious damage.

Click to expand...

Been there, done that...

Putting a 135mm Hektor on a FED-2 should only be done within the last few frames of the film. It doesn't damage anything, but you need to help the rangefinder cam with a finger from the inside of the camera, which means removing film and holding the shutter open. Also the lens should be focused close - as close as possible - or it won't come off (or on).

BUT: The focus is exact, or at least it was in my case.

Dead Link Removed