KENTMERE Range Update : From HARMAN

Ken Nadvornick · Apr 1, 2009

Tom Kershaw said:
Simon,

I take it that Kentmere Bromide has not been discontinued?

Tom.

Same question from me.

I don't normally respond to the Product Availability posts, but all of my processes are standardized around Kentmere Bromide. So I most definitely have a dog in this fight.

Ken

canuhead · Apr 4, 2009

I wish we could get something definitive officially on bromide. If it's end of lifed, it'd be good to know so we can start looking at alternatives. The silence is a bit worrisome.

Tom Kershaw · Apr 4, 2009

I wish we could get something definitive officially on bromide. If it's end of lifed, it'd be good to know so we can start looking at alternatives. The silence is a bit worrisome.

I've just started using Kentmere Bromide and considering whether to stock it or not in the various sizes. It has a different look to ILFORD Galerie.

Tom.

Rob Skeoch · Apr 5, 2009

I hope Bromide continues on.... since I started using it for my 8x10 work I've decided to use it for everything since I have to have the different grades on hand anyway. It's my favorite paper.
-rob

canuhead · Apr 5, 2009

Rob Skeoch said:
... It's my favorite paper.
-rob

Exactly and it emphasizes why there are worried printers out there, myself included. I hated losing Zone VI Brilliant and don't want to go through this again with Bromide.

schlger · Apr 29, 2009

Please note this message, I recieved at 3. 26. 2009 from a retailer in Europe:

A number of you have asked question about our plans for the Kentmere Paper range. I would like to take this opportunity on confirming the situation:
1 - VC Select, in both Gloss and Fine Lustre, remains the key product in the range for everyday printing.
2 - Fineprint remains the key product in the range for fine art printing. The situation on the three versions is different:
1 - the gloss surface is freely available

2 - the Finegrain surface cannot be continued in its current form as we can no longer buy the Finegrain base. We are down to our last few m2 of stock.

3 - the Finegrain Warmtone version cannot be continued as the base is no longer available. We have sold all th stock is this product.

4 - we are working on new versions of both of the Finegrain papers. These will have a semi-matt smooth surface. Trial coating will be tested with key customers shortly. If they are acceptable the products will be put into production. If they are not acceptable the products will have to be removed from the range.

3 - Kenthene, in both Gloss and Fine Lustre, remain a popular product in many Export countries, and it will continue in the range.

4 - Kentona has had very low sales in recent years. Therefore, when the current stock is sold the product will be discontinued, as we cannot justify transferring production to Mobberley. We expect the stock to run out in the next few weeks.

5 - Bromide is another very low selling product. We still have quite a lot of Kentmere made stock. When this runs out the product will be discontinued.

As you know, VC Select and Fineprint now use "high tech" ILFORD versions of the original emulsions, which gives better performance and a wide contrast range. Kenthene like wish uses an improved ILFORD designed emulsion.

Martin Hadden

Sales Manager EAMER Export

HARMAN technology Limited

Tom Kershaw · Apr 29, 2009

As you know, VC Select and Fineprint now use "high tech" ILFORD versions of the original emulsions, which gives better performance and a wide contrast range. Kenthene like wish uses an improved ILFORD designed emulsion.

This comment would seem to imply that printing on new stocks of Harman manufactured Kentmere Fineprint should enable a wider range of contrast. Does anyone have experience of this?

Tom.

jeroldharter · Apr 29, 2009

Tom Kershaw said:
This comment would seem to imply that printing on new stocks of Harman manufactured Kentmere Fineprint should enable a wider range of contrast. Does anyone have experience of this?

Tom.

It is certainly different than the old Kentmere. The tone/color is the same though. I think the response to selenium is different - less tendency to eggplant and more toward red-black. I ran out of an old box and switched to a Harmon box which was more contrasty and I had to do new test prints. I have not done any testing, just some observations from a recent printing session.

Tom Kershaw · Apr 29, 2009

I may have a mix of old and new(ish) 2008 stock, so perhaps a test is in order. One of my major issues with the old paper was its lack of contrast flexibility, as I did appreciate the tonality and colour.

Tom.

Thomas Bertilsson · Apr 29, 2009

I am not going to bicker and moan about product availability, as I understand the reality of current economics. But consider this:
You are discontinuing all of the products that really make Kentmere special. Both Bromide, Kentona and the current version of warmtone fine grain are the three products that really stand out against any of the competition.
The other papers can easily be replaced by other emulsions.
Bromide is possibly the crispest paper I've ever tried printing on with incredible contrast. Kentona with its color and lith capability, and the Warmtone fiber paper with its warm base, beautiful surface, and highly interesting lith results.
You may be saving the money makers, but you're 'neutralizing' the brand that is Kentmere into a rather bland mix of products.

Just my two pennies worth.

- Thomas Bertilsson

Guillaume Zuili · Apr 30, 2009

Agree with Thomas. kentmere is dead now.

PHOTOTONE · Apr 30, 2009

Thomas Bertilsson said:
You are discontinuing all of the products that really make Kentmere special. Both Bromide, Kentona and the current version of warmtone fine grain are the three products that really stand out against any of the competition.

- Thomas Bertilsson

But the letter posted said extremely low sales, and in some cases unavailability of the old paper base stock. I don't see how one can get around those issues.

Thomas Bertilsson · Apr 30, 2009

I'm not disputing what you're saying, Phototone. I'm just stating my opinion that the three papers that disappear were the ones that distinguished Kentmere from 'the rest'.

Economics is more than just plus and minus. It's also branding and a perceived value the customers get. Kentona is special, an amazing paper that many don't use, probably because it's difficult (especially for roll film users) to tailor negatives to print on a single grade.

I hope that they are successful in at least reviving the Warmtone paper.

Andrew Moxom · Apr 30, 2009

RIP Kentmere, light a candle and sing a hymn. The stuff that's left is mediocre at best. Time to allow other emulsion manufacturers to step up if all we get is increased cost and not enough products that are interesting.

canuhead · Apr 30, 2009

If bromide disappears, the optics, imo, aren't going to look good on Ilford, at least for this photographer. Here's a manufacturer that afaik, was doing well, gets taken over by Ilford and then some products get cut. I never got on with Gallerie and would have to see if Oriental is anywhere near good as the old blue box stuff if I can't get Bromide anymore.

I could always contact but I love enlarging more.

Uhner · Apr 30, 2009

Thomas Bertilsson said:
the three papers that disappear were the ones that distinguished Kentmere from 'the rest'.

Economics is more than just plus and minus. It's also branding and a perceived value the customers get. Kentona is special, an amazing paper that many don't use, probably because it's difficult (especially for roll film users) to tailor negatives to print on a single grade.

I agree…

tim_walls · Apr 30, 2009

canuhead said:
If bromide disappears, the optics, imo, aren't going to look good on Ilford, at least for this photographer. Here's a manufacturer that afaik, was doing well, gets taken over by Ilford and then some products get cut. I never got on with Gallerie and would have to see if Oriental is anywhere near good as the old blue box stuff if I can't get Bromide anymore.

Of course, the reason Kentmere found themselves in a position where they had to sell out may well have been that they discovered they could no longer find the base for half their papers and didn't have the money to get out of the hole it made for them.

Rampant speculation of course, but since that's what most of this thread is anyway what's another log on the fire...

Tom Kershaw · Apr 30, 2009

tim_walls said:
Of course, the reason Kentmere found themselves in a position where they had to sell out may well have been that they discovered they could no longer find the base for half their papers and didn't have the money to get out of the hole it made for them.

I suppose this is the falling of a cliff scenario. I wonder how feasible it would be for a photographic paper manufacturer to actually make there own paper (not I imagine unless Kodak or Fuji) or at least exert more control of the viability of particular bases?

Tom.

railwayman3 · Apr 30, 2009

It's sad when any photo product is discontinued (even when it's one I don't use myself at the particular time, as it all reduces choice).

But if a particular product (not just photographic) is either (or both) impossible to make because of component/material supplies, or (and) unprofitable because of limited demand, what can any manufacturer do?

At least Ilford always seem willing to try to provide acceptable alternatives.

If that isn't good enough, and running a viable business is that easy, maybe the complainers should hire a factory and set up their own production lines?

Thomas Bertilsson · Apr 30, 2009

Well, look at car manufacturers. Many of them are in trouble today, but consider Audi for instance. If they didn't have the R8 sports car, or the A8 luxury car, would they be perceived as prestigious?

I'm not pretending that I can run Ilford or Kentmere any better. But Kentmere without Kentona, Bromide, and Fineprint Warmtone VC is - what?

mikebarger · Apr 30, 2009

Are they now????

Mike

railwayman3 · Apr 30, 2009

I see your point, but cars aren't quite the same thing as photo products. The car market is (in normal times) very large, and it may well be worth a manufacturer taking a loss on "prestige" models to attract the sort of people who are impressed by badges and names, or care what the neighbours think.

The analogue photo market is now tiny, and I don't think any of us are attracted to the "big name" photo manufacturers for their "prestige" names. I'd guess that most are like myself, we feel that Kodak, Fuji and Ilford make consistent products of a quality which we can rely on, but we also enjoy using and experimenting with materials from the smaller manufacturers, as well as older and alternative processes.

Which is, of course, why anything which reduces our choices and options is regrettable, even if understandable.

Thomas Bertilsson · Apr 30, 2009

Understood. Perhaps my car industry analogy was poorly chosen.

I really wish Harman the best of luck in trying to re-invent the Kentmere brand. It's unfortunate what's going on, but probably unavoidable. To once again relate to the car industry - GM bought SAAB many years ago, a company that hasn't made good profit in 20 years. Perhaps it boosted their brand a little bit, but today I'm sure they wish they hadn't gone that route.

I was trying really hard to make a point, and not to whine; yet it still sounds a bit like that as I re-read my posts. I still think that Kentmere/Harman are faced with very tough decisions, and it's for us to accept those decisions and move on, hoping they can continue to bring us good products that get us the results we crave and desire.

Photo Engineer · Apr 30, 2009

Over the years I have seen Kodak "forget" how to make several products or have seen products change when moved between plants. It is normal for Ilford to experience problems moving Kentmere formulas to their facilty in my opinion. In addition, most all western coating plants get their paper from one company rather than make it themselves. Even Kodak buys there. So, if a paper surface or tint is discontinued it is due to the ultimate supplier not being able to make the paper economically in the face of the current market.

An example I got from one representative of that company was that FB paper represents around 10% of their total paper production now, and that includes all varieties. I have samples of a dozen surfaces of RC, but only 3 surfaces of FB. None of it is SW, all is DW or TW paper as the coating companies do not like coating on SW.

PE

railwayman3 · Apr 30, 2009

Thomas Bertilsson said:
Understood. Perhaps my car industry analogy was poorly chosen.

I really wish Harman the best of luck in trying to re-invent the Kentmere brand. It's unfortunate what's going on, but probably unavoidable. To once again relate to the car industry - GM bought SAAB many years ago, a company that hasn't made good profit in 20 years. Perhaps it boosted their brand a little bit, but today I'm sure they wish they hadn't gone that route.

I was trying really hard to make a point, and not to whine; yet it still sounds a bit like that as I re-read my posts. I still think that Kentmere/Harman are faced with very tough decisions, and it's for us to accept those decisions and move on, hoping they can continue to bring us good products that get us the results we crave and desire.

I do take your point, and agree with what you say.

I guess, as someone who has run their own business and also worked as
a business advisor, that I can empathise with the problems of anyone trying to run a business, large or small, particularly at the present time. Ilford seem to be much closer to their customers than mose businesses, and, in a way, do have some "prestige" products, like the special L/F films, which cannot produce much profit, but no doubt creat goodwill with their customers. But even those could not be produced if the materials were not available.

For some odd reason your comment about accepting decisions reminds me of my late grandfather, who was married in 1943, and one told me that, with wartime shortages, the wedding photographer, even though a professional, had to restrict them to one-film's-worth of photos. My grandfather was a keen amateur photographer and had two films saved up himself from before the war, one of which he got a friend to use to take extra pictures when they returned from honeymoon (one night in a hotel about 10 miles away, after which he was back to his duties in the Forces!).

KENTMERE Range Update : From HARMAN

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