KENTMERE Range Update : From HARMAN

Matthew Gorringe · Mar 18, 2009

dphill said:
It always seems to me that "artists" make do with the materials at hand. "Dilettantes" tend to blame their tools.

As someone said somewhere sometime ago, "Adapt or Die!"

Hmmm, up to a point. These particular products aren't critical to me but I can think of one other paper that would mean a major problem if it was to be discontinued.

I can certainly sympathise with people you describe as "dilettantes"; it can be very difficult to adapt. I remember people who are 100% artists (and whose interest is demonstarbly more than superficial) who felt the need to max out credit cards and buy freezers full of AZO and Polycontrast when they were discontinued. Polycontrast wasn't even a unique category, there's heaps of VC FB papers out there. If you can't spend $20,000 or more on buying in a stock to last for some years then you have to adapt, but it doesn't mean your work will be as good and some artists recognise this.

Photographic paper isn't only a tool it is the final product as well. The paper defines certains things about the finished print.

Having said all that there's no sense in blaming Harman for its decisions. It's fantastic that Simon bothers to come here and inform this community about it as one of the company's first public announcements. I won't be as kind if Harman ever discontinues Galerie!

tim_walls · Mar 18, 2009

dphill said:
It always seems to me that "artists" make do with the materials at hand. "Dilettantes" tend to blame their tools.

As someone said somewhere sometime ago, "Adapt or Die!"

I'm not qualified to comment on artist or dilettante - I suspect I fall somewhere in the definition of 'hack' - but I strongly agree with this. Analogue photography is hardly in a unique position, but there do seem to be an excess of people who want to shake their fist at the heavens imploring "why must you be so cruel and not provide everything I want (ideally at a low, low price)" instead of just getting on with things.

One of my other hobbies (that I haven't given nearly enough attention lately, but that's by the by) is electronics. As time goes by, components cease to be manufactured, lines change to match the commercial drivers of the industry, and so on. By way of example, it's increasingly hard to get through-hole components these days, first everything moved to surface mount but were still quite manageable, then surface mount components got smaller and smaller, then we wound up with esoteric mounts like ball-grid arrays that were thought to be basically impossible to use without a professional wave soldering station, and so on... This isn't an opportunity to wail and gnash teeth though; you just have to learn how to make the best; it turns out with a bit of new technique most of these things can be worked with, surface mounts can be soldered with skill, BGAs can be mounted with a toaster oven and a bit of luck, and some stuff is just impossible but you have to suck it up, move on, and work around it.

On the flip side, thanks to eBay, and the continual cycle of upgrades that sweeps through the industry, I have equipment at home that 15 years ago I couldn't even have dreamt of. I've got logic analysers, function generators, scopes and the like that when I started work would probably have cost not much less than my house - and now I can pick them all up on eBay for less than the cost of a few good textbooks.

Like you say, adapt or die. And treat every adaptation as an opportunity . GO and try some other papers if the one you love has been killed off. Take it as a sign to try something new rather than complaining that "I can't keep on doing the same old same old forever."

mrtoml · Mar 18, 2009

I for one will miss Kentona as I use it for lith.

I hope the new VC version- if it materialises - will also be OK for lith.

BobNewYork · Mar 18, 2009

I for one, (or almost one, so it would seem) would just like to thank Simon for keeping us informed. I understand that in this very changed environment some products can no longer be commercially produced at a level of profit which enables a company to stay in business. I also understand that there is not a product out there that Harman would NOT produce if they could do so profitably. It is also clear that Harman does not take its decisions lightly - possibly because they know the raft of **** they'll get from APUG members!

There is nothing I would like more than a newly manufactured Fiat 124 Sports Coupe. (Oh I really loved that car!) Times do change and today, we have a range of great products where not so long ago there was a major doubt as to whether we would have any. Sure it's sad to let old friends go but it is a reality - and at least we have a few friends left who really do seem to give a dam.

Bob H

Mark Layne · Mar 18, 2009

Bear in mind that a couple of weeks ago we were told that Kentona was not discontinued.
You will never get a better deal on a freezer than now before the economy recovers

removed account4 · Mar 18, 2009

thanks simon for keeping us informed.
it is understandable that it is hard to please
everyone all the time, but i think you folks are doing
a good job.

it is very hard in the shrinking economy to keep making niche products that very few people purchase / use.
it is obvious that you folks are doing your best.

thanks
john

jamie young · Mar 18, 2009

Simon
Out of curiosity. What exactly are the environmental health and safety issues? From someone who likes to know how things work. Heavy metals additives?

Ian Grant · Mar 18, 2009

Centennial POP has Silver Nitrate in the emulsion. All emulsions are made using silver nitrate but what's different about this POP is that there is still some present in the coated emulsion. There's plenty of information about this paper on the Chicago Albumen Works website. I still have a couple of boxes left to finish off

Ian

Tom Kershaw · Mar 18, 2009

Ian,

Is there something more 'dangerous' about using POP coated emulsion in comparison to the usual precautions handling Silver Nitrate?

Tom.

Ian Grant · Mar 18, 2009

It's not something I've thought about or looked into Tom. But silver nitrate is used in a very controlled way in normal emulsion manufacture and the potential for contamination is very small.

However coating a paper with Silver Nitrate in it will leave traces on everything it comes into contact with, the Centennial POP can leave silver stains on the negatives used to contact print onto it, as well as your fingers if you touch the surface. Even things like the paper guillotines would be ccontaminated. I don't know what other chemicals are added to this particular POP but I'd guess that when the emulsion is manufactured and coated it's acidic and that it's relatively corrosive.

Kentmere used to coat POP once a year, probably the stripping down and cleaning process had to be far more vigorous than usual. I'll have to look into POP emulsions when I'm next in the UK.

Ian

Aurum · Mar 18, 2009

Photo Engineer said:
...Harman is reflecting the same problems Kodak had a few years ago with paper production, and you see what I have said before. It is not easy to move products between plants.

PE

I agree about the hassles of moving any liquid product from plant to plant.
It keeps me in a job, pays the mortgage, and allows me to buy film.

Its always the fine unwritten details that always bite you on the bum

willwilson · Mar 18, 2009

Simon, Does this mean the other products not listed in the press release will continued to be offered in the same sizes and package sizes they are now? There were some rumors that some sizes of Fineprint VC and other items could be eliminated.

Thanks for all your hard work!

-=Will
www.willwilson.com

FilmIs4Ever · Mar 18, 2009

Simon R Galley said:
Dear Charles,

Health & Safety rules depends a great deal on interpretation...we interpret in a way that has won us the presidents award for our safety record...a record and an award we intend to keep....

I think we have already said, that we value the H&S of a Czech worker or a Chinese worker just as much as we value that of our own.

Regards

Simon.

Good for you. After all, how is just out-sourcing pollutive processes any better for the Earth than conducting them in-country?

That is no better than burying your trash in your neighbor's back yard.

BobNewYork · Mar 18, 2009

FilmIs4Ever said:
Good for you. After all, how is just out-sourcing pollutive processes any better for the Earth than conducting them in-country?

That is no better than burying your trash in your neighbor's back yard.

I hear that. About 10 years ago as part of a job, I met with the CEO of a company which designed all sorts of garden ware for Home Depot and similar companies. He had it all made in China and shipped to the U.S. He described himself as an exporting company. When I asked how he could be an exporter he replied: "I export pollution!" and added, "But the prevailing winds ship it back."

Bob H

palec · Mar 19, 2009

Another lithable paper has gone? Sad. I guess that similar to new ADOX warmtone VC paper made by Ilford, the new Kentona VC will not be lithable either.

davekarp · Mar 29, 2009

I guess we should we assume that the reports from Freestyle that Bromide is gone are accurate, since there has been no response to our inquiries. Too bad. Nice paper.

digiconvert · Mar 29, 2009

Those of us who use this forum range from hacks (I liked that description) like me, who just get a buzz out of photography in general and still enjoys the magic of getting a print from a white piece of paper, to serious artists who spend hours choosing paper/dev combinations etc. to get the 'look' they want.

Unfortunately we are ALL in a minority niche of a minority market (even before digital the ratio of 'serious' photographers to 'instamatic snappers' was a pretty low one) that now faces a recession . I think expecting the only real major player in the mono paper business (I'd just started using Forte when they went) to produce papers that sell in uneconomical quantities and/or have serious H & S issues in such circumstances is akin to Turkeys voting for an early Christmas / Thanksgiving ! If Harman cannot make profits they will not survive, a simple fact of economic life. OK it would have been nice for Kentmere to survive (I currently use Bromide and VC) but Ilford's survival is probably more secure as a result of the takeover since it gets rid of a competitor, enables economies of scale AND gives them a wider product range, for that we should be grateful - if they go BW photography will truly wither much more rapidly than is currently the case.

Two comments from earlier in the thread particularly caught my attention ;

-"In re-reading the first post of this thread, one would get the impression that Harmans "State-of-the-art" coating facility may not be the ideal venue for specialist emulsions and papers...rather only those products that can justify extremely large production runs."
That's what I would expect of a cost effective production facility, Morgan cars in the UK hand build their cars still- tiny market with huge premiums and a waiting list. If someone can make emulsions in the same way and make money they will do it , and good luck to them.

The other compared Harman with Microsoft - I am sure Simon Galley enjoys his millionaire lifestyle on his Microsoft level salary - but as far as I recall Microsoft never posted on a website explaining why they were upgrading secure OS's with ones that fall over (OK I admit it I use Macs) Harman on the other hand consistently tell it like it is AND are endeavouring to produce good quality , profitable products in difficult times - Thank You for that !!!!!!

BobNewYork · Mar 29, 2009

digiconvert said:
Those of us who use this forum range from hacks (I liked that description) like me, who just get a buzz out of photography in general and still enjoys the magic of getting a print from a white piece of paper, to serious artists who spend hours choosing paper/dev combinations etc. to get the 'look' they want.

Unfortunately we are ALL in a minority niche of a minority market

Harman on the other hand consistently tell it like it is AND are endeavouring to produce good quality , profitable products in difficult times - Thank You for that !!!!!!

Well said that man!!

By the way digiconvert, how long have you been married? Of course she'll notice. They always do !!

Bob H

Bruce Osgood · Mar 29, 2009

The other compared Harman with Microsoft - I am sure Simon Galley enjoys his millionaire lifestyle on his Microsoft level salary - but as far as I recall Microsoft never posted on a website explaining why they were upgrading secure OS's with ones that fall over (OK I admit it I use Macs) Harman on the other hand consistently tell it like it is AND are endeavouring to produce good quality , profitable products in difficult times - Thank You for that !!!!!!

My reference to Microsoft and Harman was meant as a business philosophy: Buy, Bundle or Burn; where a company might Buy out a potential competitor product, Bundle the product into their 'system' or Burn it out of existence.

FilmIs4Ever · Mar 29, 2009

I don't know what element of this thread I detest the most: the entitlement complex, the IT guys that destroy the analog-optical infrastructure by day, but think that their hobbyist usage by night somehow makes up for it, or the really tired, cliche, thin Microsoft metaphors.

In any case, B&W photography, on a real-world, day-job level, is a niche niche market, that is going to get more and more niche the more school darkrooms get torn out.

It's actually quite amazing that a company that has settled on B&W photography only, like Ilford, is able to survive at all in the 21st century. B&W has been in a tailspin since, what, 1997, -98 when everyone started to switch over to color film and scanners at the papers? It's been over a decade. Even B&W art photography, which everyone here except, it seems, for me, has this chip on their shoulders like it is more pure than color, has been in decline since at least the '60s. So now I get this same snobbishness about color here that the painters used to aim at the photographers. Briliant! Amazing that the same ignorance trickles down, just like certain other substances. . .

I still shoot B&W occasionally, but God-forbid I actually get to use it with a client. I think I've shot all of two rollls in the past three years for money. Everyone asks "you can just make B&W from the color you shoot, right?" I sign and say yes. I shoot it for kicks when I string for papers sometimes. Boy do I get dirty looks though when my images are only available in B&W. "Well, the whole website's in color, even if only the front page of the actual paper is." "Shucks," I say.

Oren Grad · Mar 29, 2009

FilmIs4Ever said:
It's actually quite amazing that a company that has settled on B&W photography only, like Ilford, is able to survive at all in the 21st century.

But it hasn't. Harman's business plan is based on augmenting its traditional monochrome business with new - and most importantly, growing - businesses that leverage its formulation and coating expertise, like inkjet papers.

This is no great secret - there's plenty of information on the corporate website:

http://www.harmantechnology.com/

This is a good thing, because it means that the traditional materials don't have to bear the entire cost of sustaining Harman's production and distribution infrastructure.

FilmIs4Ever · Mar 29, 2009

Oren Grad said:
But it hasn't. Harman's business plan is based on augmenting its traditional monochrome business with new - and most importantly, growing - businesses that leverage its formulation and coating expertise, like inkjet papers.

This is no great secret - there's plenty of information on the corporate website:

http://www.harmantechnology.com/

This is a good thing, because it means that the traditional materials don't have to bear the entire cost of sustaining Harman's production and distribution infrastructure.

Congratulations, yet another fine nitpick. . . Only on APUG.

I'm sure Ilfords inkjet line and monochrome digital prints are really holding their own weight compared to their Delta, FP, HP, and Multigrade sales. . .

Lean back in your armchair, internet expert.

Tom Kershaw · Mar 29, 2009

The Harman Technology site gives applications beyond inkjet printing and digital compatible media.

Tom.

kraker · Mar 31, 2009

Simon R Galley said:
Dear All,
As promised please find our full press release below :

Thanks, Simon, for letting us know.

Hm, I've looked on the Ilford Photo site and the HARMAN technology site, but I can't find this press release on either of those sites. Now that I think of it, I hadn't checked the site of Kentmere yet (...) No, no press release there either.

So, is this the special APUG press-pre-release? (It's true, we *are* special... )

Tom Kershaw · Apr 1, 2009

Simon,

I take it that Kentmere Bromide has not been discontinued?

Tom.

KENTMERE Range Update : From HARMAN

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