Kentmere film "?" Maybe Mr. Galley will know.

PHOTOTONE · Jan 29, 2009

PhotoJim said:
Ilford has stated publicly quite a few times that it doesn't sell film to third parties to be rebranded. Even in this case, the Kentmere films are different emulsions, sold only under the Kentmere name.

Doesn't sell films to be rebranded. That still leaves open the possibility that Ilford/Harman themselves can put whatever "brand" they want on the output of their factory, if they are selling the film themselves.

jimgalli · Jan 29, 2009

PhotoJim said:
Ilford has stated publicly quite a few times that it doesn't sell film to third parties to be rebranded. Even in this case, the Kentmere films are different emulsions, sold only under the Kentmere name.

Exactly. We're not talking about Ilford now, we're talking about Kentmere so perhaps that opens an avenue of competition with the others that wouldn't be filled otherwise.

Also I believe there's a symbiotic relationship between Freestyle and Photo Warehouse. Like Freestyle owns them maybe?

PhotoJim · Jan 29, 2009

I should more accurately have said Harman, not Ilford - but perhaps Simon Galley can comment specifically.

FilmIs4Ever · Jan 29, 2009

jimgalli said:
Long as everyone is speculating and crystal ball looking, how long before Freestyle in LA comes out with a new 100 and 400 from England in 120 and 4X5 8X10. Just dreaming out loud of course Why should Kodak get all the biz?

Sorry to rain on your parade, but the base for sheet film is 7/1000", and roll film is much thinner. So you aren't going to get a niche, low-use sheet film from a product that isn't even offered in 4x5". Even 120 is (usually?) coated on a different base than 35mm, at least it is with Kodak film.

Haven't seen Ilford tech documents, but from what I've seen of their 120 film, this is industry wide practice the way products are coated differently with 35mm, roll, and sheet sizes.

Ian Grant · Jan 29, 2009

Ilford/Harman state quite clearly they don't sell their own branded films to be re-branded, That means Pan F, FP4, HP5, Delta 100 etc, etc. That's quite different to producing other film for 3rd parties.

Essentially it means their premium films are only sold under the Ilford/Harman banner. Because the 3rd party films are made at the same factory by the same team they will obviously share many characteristics.

You pay your money & make your choice, I'd rather have Delta 100 or 400 than a cheaper product, although of course I'd like to pay less

Ian

Aurum · Jan 29, 2009

Simon, another question.

Have Harman ever considered selling the Ilford (and now Kentmere) products off the website, or do you prefer to leave the sale of the products down to the established dealership network?

I ask for two reasons. One is that I work for a company that has always sold products via supermarkets and retailers, but now we also sell off our website. Volumes aren't huge, but it pays for itself and allows our customers who like the less widely distributed parts of our range to get product.

The second is that I too would like to try out the Kentmere product as I like to have a play with different films from time to time to see how they look compared to my usual standards of Delta or XP2. It just seems a little odd to make it in Mobberley, ship it to North America, for me to order it on the internet so it arrives in Birmingham a few weeks later
I shall refer to it as the scenic route!

Tom Kershaw · Jan 29, 2009

Aurum,

You don't need to order Harman Technology products via North America.

Tom.

Simon R Galley · Jan 30, 2009

Dear Aurum,

KENTMERE products are widely available in the UK through traditional resellers, worldwide we are doing all we can to make distriubution wider. We have no plans to sell direct at present due to our worldwide distributor and reseller relationships.

On questions regarding private label : NO CHANGE : On taking over the business it has always been quite clear the management of HARMAN technology Limited would end all 'private label' deals for ILFORD Photo products, we obviously now own KENTMERE where the same strategy will be applied, as you know we will make for other brands such as BERGGER where entirely new products are coated as we continue to value and ensure that the widest possible choice exists for monochrome.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Aurelien · Jan 30, 2009

The best, Simon would be to coat again the former BRF 200 / fortepan 200 for Bergger... Is there a plan for that? I will miss this film soon, when my stocks are going to be depleted...

Kimberly Anderson · Jan 30, 2009

Simon, et al...

Wow, I just stumbled upon this thread and I am very impressed. Impressed at the commitment of Ilford/Harmon to keep B/W film in the mainstream. Impressed at the direct participation of Mr. Galley and his hold-no-punches attitude of sharing information. Kudos and much applause to you!

I was in a 2 hour meeting yesterday to determine curriculum for the next four years at the private school I teach photography at. The Waterford School has been using Ilford films and papers exclusively for the past 10-ish years. When I got on board last year I was amazed at the filing cabinets brimming with film. Every drawer full of 35 and 120. A storage closet jam packed with printing papers, both RC and fiber. My jaw hit the floor.

Waterford has had a very long commitment to the wet darkroom, and I do not want to give it up. The administration does not want to give it up, and the students don't want to either. When I started teaching here I wondered seriously how long Ilford would be around to help us keep that tradition going. I did not really understand the full commitment Ilford had to film-based photography until I read through this thread. It is very reassuring as we move forward that the availability of products and supplies for the students to use will be around. There was some talk of tearing out our small darkroom (15 enlargers) and putting in computers. I am going to fight that as long as I'm around.

We're moving into 4x5, 8x10, 4x10, 11x14 and 8x20 film cameras next year in addition to the 35mm and 120 curriculum currently offered. I am recently getting back into the ULF scene and am hoping that my students and myself can look forward to seeing these sizes of films offered in the future.

In any case, I just wanted to publicly thank APUG and Simon in particular for this thread and the honest open conversation. As an educator and working photographer I salute you!

Simon R Galley · Jan 30, 2009

Dear Michael,

I think you hit it on the head with the key statement 'the students do not wish to give it up' we hear this time and time again, students spend so much time in front of their computers the act of physically creating your image and print is something different, exciting, truly creative and satisfying...its all part of why HARMAN and our Chairman Howard Hopwood started 'the defend the darkroom' project...

The skills taught and acquired by using and understanding silver based photography are fundamental in making a photographer and or printer, regardless of whether in your career you carry on to use mostly digital photography.

We also see people on APUG who started out with digital and have worked back to silver as their interest in photography needs to find a true and unique expression, I do bang on about it, and I know it is my livelyhood, but silver photography is a very, very important part of our world culture, east and west, north and south and must be championed and the best advocates of all are those that teach and those that are willing to share knowledge, its why we especially support APUG.

We work with colleges around the world to promote silver based teaching, and all to often we hear of decisions being taken about closing darkrooms because they can fund computers but not sinks and enlargers, and that health and safety legislation makes it easier to go inkjet.....and its easier to have a dry area than a wet area...

People say its more expensive, perhaps so, but when you look at the cost of inkjet media , ink, printers, service, and more significantly the endless built in obsolescence of computers and digital imaging devices I think silver remains good value for money in the long term..

Well, in my opinion, if you are going to make a real photographer, he or she will need to get their hands wet sometime, so do it in college and have them taught properly and safely.

You cannot teach an art student to paint on a computer...nor a photographer...

Also do not call me ( us ? ) luddites, I have no problem with digital photography whatsoever it has some great applications that enhance photography, but as well as, not... instead of...

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Kimberly Anderson · Jan 30, 2009

Simon,

I am going to print this and hand it to my Head of School. You make a compelling argument which attitude is shared by us here at Waterford.

I am one of those photographers who was an early adopter of digital (1999), but have always kept film in my quiver of arrows. I am finding more and more pleasure from returning to the darkroom on a regular, frequent basis.

I am also enjoying the teaching and watching the learning of, film-based photography more than was expected.

I look forward to paying attention to your posts more closely.

EDIT:

Today and yesterday are our parent/teacher conferences. In my last conference I had both parents who took darkroom in high school. They both LOVED it. The mom said, "Film is so much better than digital. It's more real." I told her I would post that in this thread. Anyway, just thought I would share.

IMO, film is having it's own Renaissance right now.

Simon R Galley said:
Dear Michael,

I think you hit it on the head with the key statement 'the students do not wish to give it up' we hear this time and time again, students spend so much time in front of their computers the act of physically creating your image and print is something different, exciting, truly creative and satisfying...its all part of why HARMAN and our Chairman Howard Hopwood started 'the defend the darkroom' project...

The skills taught and acquired by using and understanding silver based photography are fundamental in making a photographer and or printer, regardless of whether in your career you carry on to use mostly digital photography.

We also see people on APUG who started out with digital and have worked back to silver as their interest in photography needs to find a true and unique expression, I do bang on about it, and I know it is my livelyhood, but silver photography is a very, very important part of our world culture, east and west, north and south and must be championed and the best advocates of all are those that teach and those that are willing to share knowledge, its why we especially support APUG.

We work with colleges around the world to promote silver based teaching, and all to often we hear of decisions being taken about closing darkrooms because they can fund computers but not sinks and enlargers, and that health and safety legislation makes it easier to go inkjet.....and its easier to have a dry area than a wet area...

People say its more expensive, perhaps so, but when you look at the cost of inkjet media , ink, printers, service, and more significantly the endless built in obsolescence of computers and digital imaging devices I think silver remains good value for money in the long term..

Well, in my opinion, if you are going to make a real photographer, he or she will need to get their hands wet sometime, so do it in college and have them taught properly and safely.

You cannot teach an art student to paint on a computer...nor a photographer...

Also do not call me ( us ? ) luddites, I have no problem with digital photography whatsoever it has some great applications that enhance photography, but as well as, not... instead of...

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Simon R Galley · Feb 2, 2009

Dear Michael,

Thanks for the feedback, have a great year...

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited ;

milkplus-mesto · Feb 2, 2009

Simon, I'm one of those students who loves film. Not only is the process itself beautiful, but compared to the digital cameras we use today, the industrial design of older manual cameras is far superior. My beautiful pentax system feels wonderful to use, and the meter is still as reliable as ever. I have every belief that the manufacturers that will survive into the future are those who truly believe in their customers, and not corporate control.

Much as my collection of digital music will fade away, whilst my vinyl stis there virtually unchanged - i believe that my digital photographs will not enjoy the longevity of those taken on film. (even with "relaxed" darkroom technique).

Good luck to ilford in 2009, and I should hope that we see more ilford/kentmere products here in the UK soon.

Henry

Simon R Galley · Feb 10, 2009

Dear All,

As part of our plans to make KENTMERE products ( Both Film & Paper ) readily available around the World I am very pleased to tell you that our ILFORD Photo distributor in Australia and New Zealand C.R.Kennedy will now be importing and distributing KENTMERE for us.

Orders will be shipped in a week or so so we would expect KENTMERE to appear in photo retail in Aus / NZ mid March 2009.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

jglass · Feb 10, 2009

This might be the place to post a little anecdote about my son, Lucas, who is 9. For some reason I bought a gigantic collection of film cameras this weekend, primarily to re-sell on ebay, after culling users for myself. Lucas went with me because I had promised him a bike ride around the lake before I saw the ad for this collection. We put off the bike ride and we talked to the owner of these 80 or so bodies, with lenses flashes, filters, etc., for over 2 hours. Lucas, with nary a complaint, hung in there patiently and handled the cameras and listened to the owner, a gentle older man, originally from Portugal, later Connecticut and now Austin, Texas, tell stories and show me how everything operated.

There was one digital camera in the bunch, a fine older Canon pro body a few years old and completely obsolete because it had only two megapixels. (there's your obsolescence). By contrast, there was a 50 year old Bessa and a 50 year old Argus rangefinder still in working order, able to shoot Delta 100 just as easily now as they shot Pan F or whatever during World War II.

We got home with this haul and Lucas, who had been promised one of the bodies of his choice, was going through them. I said, now Lucas you know there are really no digital ones in there, right?

He said: "I know Dad, I don't want a digital one, cause they just spit something out on a computer. Film is cool because you have to process it and you can print it in a darkroom."

Agreed!!

There's your new generation, your film rennaissance, your custmer for the next 50 years! (I think he's finally settled on a Nikon FG with 50 1.8 lens for his camera although he was really drawn to the Yashica X-3 with red alligator cover!)

After reading this thread, I'm going to make sure his first roll in that Nikon is HP5. Go Ilford. Thanks, Simon.

Jeff Glass

Simon R Galley · Feb 11, 2009

Dear Jeff,

A great story, I look forward to seeing his first shot with the NIKON FG, send it to me and it will go on our APUG wall of fame....

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Steve Smith · Feb 11, 2009

I gave my daughter (11) a Minolta SRT100 which I had spare (got a couple from ebay which I didn't really want but I won after putting silly low bids on them).

She processed a roll of film for me then did some printing in the darkroom and when she saw the Minolta a few days later I could tell that she was interested so I said she could have it. We are yet to go out to use it but you can be sure that when we do, it will also have Ilford film in it.

I think the Nikon FG is a good choice for a young person as it is small and light and can do simple program mode snapping or fully manual control. I have one but I'm keeping it for myself!

Steve.

Matt5791 · Feb 11, 2009

I think these messages show the need to "evangelise" traditional use.

I really feel there are a number of photography enthusiasts at present who got heavily into photography only after digital came along. They bought a DSLR and are now probably on their second or third. Some of these people are, only now, begining to think, hey, I might just try film.

I belive there is a significant number of people in this category, or potentially in this category.

Seabird · Feb 11, 2009

Simon R Galley said:
Dear All,

As part of our plans to make KENTMERE products ( Both Film & Paper ) readily available around the World I am very pleased to tell you that our ILFORD Photo distributor in Australia and New Zealand C.R.Kennedy will now be importing and distributing KENTMERE for us.

Orders will be shipped in a week or so so we would expect KENTMERE to appear in photo retail in Aus / NZ mid March 2009.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Simon, that is good news. Now if only we could get them to stock basic staples like 5x4 FP4+ at a competitive price ... I was looking for some of this in Dec last year and two of the retailers I contacted said the wholesalers (and I assume they meant Kennedys) were out of stock with no more due till 2009. They also want AUD$54 for a 25 sheet box (ie AUD$2.16 per sheet). For interest sake, I presently have a 200 sheet order in transit from Freestyle in the US who have supplied at an average landed price of AUD$1.69 per sheet - ie inclusive of a hefty freight charge and even after the collapse of the $AUD (= pacfic peso !) I'd prefer to support the locals but jeez they make it hard sometimes. I'd assume it also distorts your understanding of market trends/volumes if Freestyle and others are shipping significant volumes outside of the US.

I realise there is not a lot you can do, but it makes me feel better to express my frustration. Anyway, keep up the good work. Many of us appreciate what Ilford are trying to do, and will continue to support you.

Regards

Carey Bird

Steve Smith · Feb 11, 2009

Matt5791 said:
I really feel there are a number of photography enthusiasts at present who got heavily into photography only after digital came along. They bought a DSLR and are now probably on their second or third.

I am one of those (sort of). I have always had a film camera* Mine being the Nikon FG from about 1988 onwards.

I bought a Nikon D100 in 2003 but within 9 months I couldn't work out why I had thought it a good idea to spend £1500 on it.

I started buying cameras which I couldn't afford ten years previously like a Rolleicord, ETRS, RB67, etc. and got back into film in a much bigger way than I was previously.

I am hearing/reading the same story quite a lot now.

* Owning just one camera. Hard to imagine now!

Steve.

ath · Feb 11, 2009

Apparently Kentmere films have hit the shelves in Austria: Dead Link Removed.

With datasheets:
Dead Link Removed
Dead Link Removed

Anybody know a source in Germany?

Simon R Galley · Feb 11, 2009

Dear Carey,

Thanks for your note, I read carefully what you say, one thing I do know is that C R Kennedy are an outstanding distributor for us and they do so much in the Australian market on our behalf, I cannot fault anything they do. C R Kennedy order and ship monthly and frequently ship at their expense by air special orders. HARMAN technology Limited have done a massive amount of work to have a worldwide pricing structure where everyone should pay the same for our goods but we cannot regulate exchange rates nor
( by law ) can we mandate the price the actual retailer charges for our goods, so you often see big price differences, on top of that certain countries have import duties that obviously inflate the landed price, not to mention local sales taxes. In Australia we do have some specific additional costs, freight from the UK...its a long way and of course at this time of year ( down under, not up here ) it has to be a refridgerated container. I Hope this explains some of the 'differences' . It is honestly a never ending battle to try and create a level playing field for all our customers worldwide, but we do try really hard....

Thanks for buying, using and valuing our products

Regards

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Tom Stanworth · Feb 11, 2009

Simon,

Can you comment on the imaging characteristics of this film?

To be honest, options in the traditional grain 100 speed film in 35mm are is exactly what is lacking IMO, so this is great news. One has a choice of FP4+ or Plus X (with its long toe) from the big names and then eastern films with QC issues cropping up more often than is ideal. If this film has imaging characteristics which are quite different from FP4+ that would be very interesting. I love Delta 100 for certain things and am very excited about a traditional grain film complimenting FP4+. It would be just perfect if the new film has somewhat less elegance than FP4+ and is arguably 'grittier', giving genuine 'horses for courses' choice.

Really FP4+ is alone as a (non-long toe) roughly 100 speed traditional grain film from a major manufacturer (ignoring Fuji 100SS with its official distro only in Japan).

Excellent!

Tom Stanworth · Feb 11, 2009

Simon,

Can you comment on the imaging characteristics of this film?

To be honest, options in the traditional grain 100 speed film in 35mm are is exactly what is lacking IMO, so this is great news. One has a choice of FP4+ or Plus X (with its long toe) from the big names and then eastern films with QC issues cropping up more often than is ideal. If this film has imaging characteristics which are quite different from FP4+ that would be very interesting. I love Delta 100 for certain things and am very excited about a traditional grain film complimenting FP4+. It would be just perfect if the new film has somewhat less elegance than FP4+ and is arguably 'grittier', giving genuine 'horses for courses' choice.

Really FP4+ is alone as a (non-long toe) roughly 100 speed traditional grain film from a major manufacturer (ignoring Fuji 100SS with its official distro only in Japan).

Excellent!

Kentmere film "?" Maybe Mr. Galley will know.

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