Kentmere 100 & 400 Spectral Sensitivity

miha · Jan 3, 2023

relistan said:
No, it's more complicated than that. Agfa Germany (AgfaPhoto Gmbh), who produced consumer films went bankrupt in 2005. Lupus imaging licensed the name AgfaPhoto out of bankruptcy, and markets the APX-100 and APX-400 films to consumers. Agfa-Gevaert in Belgium produces a lot of the other films you see rebranded, but does not sell direct to consumers.

More details on the insolvency here: https://www.agfa.com/corporate/news-item/agfa-gevaert-on-the-insolvency-filing-of-agfaphoto-gmbh/

My objective here was that Agfa is not a defunct company as stated by pentaxuser. And I know it's a complex story.

Henning Serger · Jan 3, 2023

Craig said:
I understand the new Kentmere ( especially the 120) is an emulsion developed and coated by Harman, there is nothing to do with Agfa or any rebranded film. It is entirely made in house by Harman. Perhaps @Henning Serger can clarify?

Kentmere 100 and 400 in all formats are 100% Harman technology products.
Developed by them, produced by them, distributed by them.
Period.
In former times Kentmere was a UK based manufacturer of BW paper. Harman technology bought them about 15 years ago, and since then they are using the Kentmere brand as their "budget brand".

Harman technology is also offering Kentmere film as a product for rebranding. For example current AgfaPhoto APX 100 and 400, Rollei RPX 100 and 400, Fotoimpex CHM 100 and 400 (meanwhile discontinued) and some others are using / have used Kentmere 100 / 400 as material for their brands.
Which is of course very easy to identify by comparing these films.

Best regards,
Henning

MattKing · Jan 3, 2023

relistan said:
Because they had a policy (or possibly some further legal constraint from Ilford themselves), Harman did not relabel Ilford films. But they were happy to relabel the film known as Kentmere (100 and 400). In case you didn't know, Harman licenses the name Ilford (plus bought their facilities and a bunch of IP)

Strictly speaking, there are no Ilford black and white films, but there are films made by Harman and using the brand name "Ilford".
Harman can call any black and white film they make any (not yet taken) name they want. But only Harman can use the names "Ilford" or "Kentmere" or Harman, because they own those names or have exclusive licenses for them.
The decision not to make a film and then slap "Ilford" on one packaging of it and let someone else slap "XYZ" on another packaging of it is/was a business decision. As Harman "owns" the film (in distinction from the name of the film) outright, they can do what they want with it.

mshchem · Jan 3, 2023

I used (the company I worked for) to do quite a bit of business with Bayer, I visited Leverkusen on a couple occasions, there was a "company store" that sold all manner of items to employees at very affordable prices.

There was a similar store in Pittsburgh PA. I would get bricks of Agfa black and white, color, and colorslide film for less than $2 a roll, sometimes free too. I still have several rolls of Agfachrome in my freezer. All 35mm

I need to get out a roll run it through a Leica

relistan · Jan 3, 2023

@Andrew O'Neill Sorry if I derailed your thread! Was trying to help, but just muddied things up.

mshchem · Jan 3, 2023

I love Ilford, I use a lot of their products, they seem to be far and away the most involved and responsive to the photographic community.

I still gravitate to Kodak's offerings, hard to break old habits.

Henning Serger · Jan 3, 2023

relistan said:
Harman made a new film in 2009 or so, that they called Kentmere. I do not know the exact origin of this film.

It was a new development by Harman technology, with the beginner and budget market / photography classes as main target markets.
To achieve the lower price, certain compromises had to be made with some quality parameters.

relistan said:
AgfaPhoto Gmbh (Leverkusen, Germany) went bust in 2005 and stopped production of their excellent APX-100 and APX-400 films. Lupus Imaging bought the rights to the AgfaPhoto name,

It was / is a little bit more complicated........ The AgfaPhoto Holding as mother company of the AgfaPhoto Produktion (the factories in Leverkusen, Windhagen and in France) was not insolvent and survived. They own the right to use the brand called "AgfaPhoto". And their business model is to license this brand name to other companies for their products. And one company who has got such a license from them is Lupus Imaging (founded by former Agfa distribution staff). And Lupus Imaging is the company behind the AgfaPhoto APX 100 and 400 film (and some other photo products).

relistan said:
Just to confuse things further, Rollei RPX-25 is not a Harman film, it is from Agfa-Gevaert in Belgium.

Correct, and it is just the same film as Rollei Retro 80S = Agfa Aviphot Pan 80.

Best regards,
Henning

Helge · Jan 3, 2023

Henning Serger said:
No!!
There is not any confectioning work done in Germany, as Maco Photo has not any confectioning or any other production capabilities at all.
None, nothing, rien, nada, überhaupt keine.
It is a pure distribution / rebranding company.

All production work is done by Harman technology concerning RPX 100 and 400.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger said:
Correct, and it is just the same film as Rollei Retro 80S = Agfa Aviphot Pan 80.

Best regards,
Henning

Do you know if Foma confections any of the “versions” of either Aviphot emulsion?
And consequently if that has to do with the bad backing paper?

miha · Jan 3, 2023

Henning Serger said:
Correct, and it is just the same film as Rollei Retro 80S = Agfa Aviphot Pan 80.

Best regards,
Henning

And ADOX HR-50 ?

Henning Serger · Jan 3, 2023

Helge said:
Do you know if Foma confections any of the “versions” of either Aviphot emulsion?

Last time I used it Superpan 200 120 and Retro 400s 120 were confectioned by Foma (as you know, both is Agfa Aviphot Pan 200). They had the typical Foma finishing.
Therefore the lower price compared to Rollei Infrared 120 (also Agfa Aviphot Pan 200), which is confectioned by Harman.
In 135 all three versions are confectioned by Harman.

Best regards,
Henning

relistan · Jan 3, 2023

miha said:
And ADOX HR-50 ?

Not exactly. Agfa-Gevaert produces the base film but HR-50 has legitimately been modified using a proprietary process to produce a curve that works better for real photos.

miha · Jan 3, 2023

relistan said:
Not exactly. Agfa-Gevaert produces the base film but HR-50 has legitimately been modified using a proprietary process to produce a curve that works better for real photos.

Yes, most likely pre-flashed.

Helge · Jan 3, 2023

Henning Serger said:
Last time I used it Superpan 200 120 and Retro 400s 120 were confectioned by Foma (as you know, both is Agfa Aviphot Pan 200). They had the typical Foma finishing.
Therefore the lower price compared to Rollei Infrared 120 (also Agfa Aviphot Pan 200), which is confectioned by Harman.
In 135 all three versions are confectioned by Harman.

Best regards,
Henning

Thanks Henning. That is comprehensive.

Andrew O'Neill · Jan 3, 2023

relistan said:
@Andrew O'Neill Sorry if I derailed your thread! Was trying to help, but just muddied things up.

No worries! Not derailed at all! This is all very interesting.

mshchem · Jan 3, 2023

My concern is the spectra of the sun doesn't change. That would be bad

Andrew O'Neill said:
No worries! Not derailed at all! This is all very interesting.

relistan · Jan 3, 2023

miha said:
Yes, most likely pre-flashed.

Yes, probably. Everything else is even more complicated.

pentaxuser · Jan 3, 2023

OK to summarise what I think has been said:

1. Harman makes Kentmere 100 and 400, AgfaPhoto 100 and 400,Rollei RPX100 and 400, FotoImpex CHM100(true of CHM400 as well?) and Ultrafine Xtreme All of these films are the same as Kentmere

2. Rollei is a distribution company only and its current relationship to Maco is what?

3. What is the relationship of FotoImpex and Maco
4. Rollei Retro 80S, Rollei Retro 400S and Rollei IR400 are in fact all Agfa Aviphot Pan 200.

5. Harman is confectioning/converting Agfa Aviphot Pan 200 so if point 4 is correct then Harman is confectioning all films in point 4

So when choosing which films to buy in point 1, the rational consumer buys whichever he can get the cheapest. Likewise with all films in point 4

Have I now got it correct? If not then please correct me in as simple and as short a way as is commensurate with clarity

Thanks

pentaxuser

Film-Niko · Jan 3, 2023

pentaxuser said:
OK to summarise what I think has been said:

{Rude Comment deleted by Moderator: Please debate the issue, not the person.}

pentaxuser said:
2. Rollei is a distribution company only and its current relationship to Maco is what?

Maco is the trading company, distribution company. And they bought the right to use Rollei as a brand name for films and papers.
Rollei is just a name here in this game. Maco is the operating and responsible company.

pentaxuser said:
3. What is the relationship of FotoImpex and Maco

Absolutely none. Two completely different companies.

pentaxuser said:
4. Rollei Retro 80S, Rollei Retro 400S and Rollei IR400 are in fact all Agfa Aviphot Pan 200.

Rollei Superpan 200, Rollei Retro 400s and Rollei Infrared are all Agfa Aviphot Pan 200.
And JCH Street Pan, Silberra Pan 160 / Ultima 160, Silberra Pan 100 / Ultima 100 and CatLabs 320 Pro are also all Aviphot Pan 200.

Rollei Retro 80s and Rollei RPX 25 are Agfa Aviphot Pan 80.

pentaxuser said:
5. Harman is confectioning/converting Agfa Aviphot Pan 200 so if point 4 is correct then Harman is confectioning all films in point 4

No, not all. As correctly explained in one of the postings above by Henning, some variants in 120 are finished by Foma.

pentaxuser said:
So when choosing which films to buy in point 1, the rational consumer buys whichever he can get the cheapest.

Which is in most cases original Kentmere 100 and 400.

pentaxuser · Jan 3, 2023

Film-Niko said:
{Rude Comment deleted by Moderator: Please debate the issue, not the person.}

Maco is the trading company, distribution company. And they bought the right to use Rollei as a brand name for films and papers.
Rollei is just a name here in this game. Maco is the operating and responsible company.

Absolutely none. Two completely different companies.

Rollei Superpan 200, Rollei Retro 400s and Rollei Infrared are all Agfa Aviphot Pan 200.
And JCH Street Pan, Silberra Pan 160 / Ultima 160, Silberra Pan 100 / Ultima 100 and CatLabs 320 Pro are also all Aviphot Pan 200.

Rollei Retro 80s and Rollei RPX 25 are Agfa Aviphot Pan 80.

No, not all. As correctly explained in one of the postings above by Henning, some variants in 120 are finished by Foma.

Which is in most cases original Kentmere 100 and 400.

Thanks for the reply, Film-Niko, with additional information. I am unsure if it was me that was deemed rude with my sentence that was quoted as "OK to summarise what I think has been said or it was your reply but can I say that all I intended to convey was that in a thread with many contributors a summary is not always that easy, so what I think has been said may not have been said or at least not said in the way I summarised it

I have seen many threads and theories on who makes what film in several different threads but this is the first time from what I have seen that there has been enough information to try and bring a summary together which I find helpful and hopefully is helpful to others who may, like me, not have the full picture

There was no attempt on my part to antagonise anyone. If this is the effect it had on you it was completely unintended

pentaxuser

Film-Niko · Jan 3, 2023

pentaxuser said:
I have seen many threads and theories on who makes what film in several different threads but this is the first time from what I have seen that there has been enough information to try and bring a summary together which I find helpful and hopefully is helpful to others who may, like me, not have the full picture

I well remember that this topic was explained over the years here on photrio several times in detail, and with you participating in these threads.
And you have asked the same questions. And all was already answered.

Please do yourself and us a favour now and print out all the info given here in this thread. Then you have all the info immediately available if needed.

relistan · Jan 3, 2023

Film-Niko said:
Which is in most cases original Kentmere 100 and 400.

In Europe it’s often Agfaphoto APX films that are cheapest in 35mm.

Film-Niko said:
Please do yourself and us a favour now and print out all the info given here in this thread. Then you have all the info immediately available if needed.

If it bugs you, you can just not answer. No need to be like that about it.

MattKing · Jan 3, 2023

pentaxuser said:
Thanks for the reply, Film-Niko, with additional information. I am unsure

The flag for the moderator's edit was a bit confusing. It should be clearer now.

Film-Niko · Jan 3, 2023

relistan said:
In Europe it’s often Agfaphoto APX films that are cheapest in 35mm.

In the last years I've never seen the AgfaPhoto APX films being cheaper than original Kentmere 400 films. At least not at the major European online distributors.

relistan said:
If it bugs you, you can just not answer. No need to be like that about it.

No, that is not an option when misleading info is given. Young photographers and beginners read it and think it is true info.
We unfortunately have enough wrong info spreading in the film community, especially concerning rebranded films. As the rebranding companies spread all their marketing BS about their offerings.

MattKing · Jan 3, 2023

Film-Niko said:
Please do yourself and us a favour now and print out all the info given here in this thread. Then you have all the info immediately available if needed.

Instead of being so negative by telling the rest of us that we are doing things wrong when we are confused or lose track of these matters, perhaps you can do something positive: start your own thread with organized clarifying information.
That way you or someone else in the future just needs to share a thread link.

relistan · Jan 3, 2023

Film-Niko said:
In the last years I've never seen the AgfaPhoto APX films being cheaper than original Kentmere 400 films. At least not at the major European online distributors.

I don’t track the 400 but 100 is almost always cheaper as APX. See Fotoimpex right now.

Film-Niko said:
We unfortunately have enough wrong info spreading in the film community, especially concerning rebranded films. As the rebranding companies spread all their marketing BS about their offerings.

That’s not what you were doing. You were making personal statements about a forum member. Other people were in the conversation and handling the answers. You didn’t need to and if you don’t have patience for it then I suggest you don’t.

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