Kalogen formula ?

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Nov 14, 2021

mohmad khatab said:
Yes, I will do that next time.
But I read a post by a colleague in this topic that says that this developer is suitable for paper as well, and he said that in this case it must be diluted in a ratio of 1:15.
I sent some of this developer to a photographer in Tunisia and I was told that he succeeded in using it with printing.

It can also be used as a first developer in reversal processing if you add suitable amount of Thiocyanate to it.

mohmad khatab · Nov 14, 2021

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
It can also be used as a first developer in reversal processing if you add suitable amount of Thiocyanate to it.

Yes, I think you are absolutely right in your suggestion.

But I prefer to use the kit (ORWO) for reverse operations, as this is a disciplined and semi-standard process and gives expected results and does not require experiments or tests.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Nov 14, 2021

mohmad khatab said:
I prefer to use the kit (ORWO) for reverse operations, as this is a disciplined and semi-standard process and gives expected results and does not require experiments or tests.

Orwo's first developer and timings are meant primarily for use with Orwo UN54 film. For all other films, you do need to and must do testing.

mohmad khatab · Nov 14, 2021

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Orwo's first developer and timings are meant primarily for use with Orwo UN54 film. For all other films, you do need to and must do testing.

No, it works with all other types and categories of films in a very smooth and excellent manner,,
Yes, it is theoretically manufactured in order to work on (Orwo UN54 f), but this is only theoretical..
I have never owned any of the Orwo UN54 before.
I used that formula with Ilford, Kodak, and even Svema films, and it worked with everyone.
Don't worry too much about the theory the manufacturer says.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Nov 14, 2021

mohmad khatab said:
Don't worry too much about the theory the manufacturer says.

In theory or in practice?

mohmad khatab · Nov 15, 2021

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
In theory or in practice?

Perhaps the literary expression betrayed me.

When we read the official documents of ORWO, we will find that the document speaks of that this formula was designed to work on its products.

The practical reality that I live in is that I do not own any of the ORWO products at all.

So I had to use that formula with Ilford, Kodak and (Svema) products, and the formula worked perfectly.

The conclusion is:
The words written in the official documents are just theoretical, and the practical reality has proven that this formula can work with the products of other companies without any problems at all.

grainyvision · Nov 15, 2021

What chemical reaction is actually happening here? Would this be synthesizing p-aminophenol from metol and hydroquinone? Can anyone give more details?

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Nov 15, 2021

grainyvision said:
What chemical reaction is actually happening here? Would this be synthesizing p-aminophenol from metol and hydroquinone? Can anyone give more details?

There are some posts by Jerry Koch on the chemistry of Kalogen. Apparently, respective phenolates are formed which are less prone to oxidation and very soluble. Don't think PAP is ever formed.

grainyvision · Nov 16, 2021

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
There are some posts by Jerry Koch on the chemistry of Kalogen. Apparently, respective phenolates are formed which are less prone to oxidation and very soluble. Don't think PAP is ever formed.

I didn't see much description from him. Also the name to search is "gerald koch" as that is his user name here. Either way I might have to give this a try. It definitely looks simpler than paracetemol (rodinal synthesis from acetaminophen)

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Nov 17, 2021

Jerry on Kalogen and phenolates.

"Paradoxically p-aminophenol, Metol and hydroquinone are more stable at a high pH where they exist as phenolates."

"Not only are there many recipes for Rodinal like developers there are several which use Metol and hydroquinone. Both these developing agents form phenolates with hydroxides just like paraminophenol."

"The concentrate contains the phenolates of both Metol and hydroquinone and in this respect is similar to Rodinal in concept."

"At a pH < 8 the phenolate cannot form as it must be around a pH of 12.

Chemically Metol and p-aminophenol are very similar. In fact Metol resists oxidation better than pap"

"Developers like Rodinal depend on the fact that the hydrogen on the hydroxyl group is weakly acidic. In the presence of a strong base the paraminophenol forms what is known as a phenolate.

R-OH + KOH ---> ROK + HoH.

Alkalies such as carbonates are just no alkaline enough. Should you use a carbonate what you get is an ordinary MQ developer such as D-72 and not Rodinal. The phenolates are particularly resistant to aerial oxidation hence the long life of such developer concentrates are Rodinal and Kalogen."

mohmad khatab · Nov 17, 2021

In fact, I am very happy with this formula (Kalogen), which is really a very good and well-balanced formula, and it has the advantage of being long lasting without any problems,
- A very slight oxidation may occur, but it is not effective at all, and I filter the developer every six months with a cotton swab with funnel and pour the developer after that, ultra-pure and transparent.
- This is a very cost-effective developer.

mohmad khatab · Nov 17, 2021

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Jerry on Kalogen and phenolates.

"Paradoxically p-aminophenol, Metol and hydroquinone are more stable at a high pH where they exist as phenolates."

"Not only are there many recipes for Rodinal like developers there are several which use Metol and hydroquinone. Both these developing agents form phenolates with hydroxides just like paraminophenol."

"The concentrate contains the phenolates of both Metol and hydroquinone and in this respect is similar to Rodinal in concept."

"At a pH < 8 the phenolate cannot form as it must be around a pH of 12.

Chemically Metol and p-aminophenol are very similar. In fact Metol resists oxidation better than pap"

"Developers like Rodinal depend on the fact that the hydrogen on the hydroxyl group is weakly acidic. In the presence of a strong base the paraminophenol forms what is known as a phenolate.

R-OH + KOH ---> ROK + HoH.

Alkalies such as carbonates are just no alkaline enough. Should you use a carbonate what you get is an ordinary MQ developer such as D-72 and not Rodinal. The phenolates are particularly resistant to aerial oxidation hence the long life of such developer concentrates are Rodinal and Kalogen."

I have a very crazy and possibly stupid idea in my mind.
But it crosses my mind a lot.
Whenever I ignore it for a while, I find that it haunts me again after a while.
The last decision I made about this idea is that I will not think about it again until I run out of Kalogen in stock.
The idea is to replace the value of 12 grams (Metol) into three sections.
4 g Metol
4 grams p-aminophenol
4 g CD2
I don't know how long Satan will continue to manipulate my minds with these strange satanic thoughts.?

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Nov 17, 2021

mohmad khatab said:
I have a very crazy and possibly stupid idea in my mind.
But it crosses my mind a lot.

This could be some help to you in your delirious state.

Photo Engineer said:
...
Is there any proof of the image structure yielded by this developer formulation? Any sharpness, grain or speed comparisons? If not, then it is just a developer, and may be no better than using Dektol for your film.
...
Sorry *, but the question must be asked and asked politely and with respect.

mohmad khatab · Nov 17, 2021

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
This could be some help to you in your delirious state.

I do not suffer from delirium, my dear friend.
I suffer from demonic possession and there is a difference between the two.
Delirium is a mental illness, demonic possession is a spiritual illness.
- In any case, Satan is often useful (without intending it).
Thank you for the valuable information.
God bless you

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Nov 18, 2021

mohmad khatab said:
The idea is to replace the value of 12 grams (Metol) into three sections.
4 g Metol
4 grams p-aminophenol
4 g CD2

Superadditivity of Metol with Hydroquinone is critical to Kalogen's success especially at the dilutions it is used for film. If you reduce the concentration of Metol or replace it with developing agents that are not superadditive with Hydroquinone, you'll get a relatively weak developer.

mohmad khatab · Nov 20, 2021

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Superadditivity of Metol with Hydroquinone is critical to Kalogen's success especially at the dilutions it is used for film. If you reduce the concentration of Metol or replace it with developing agents that are not superadditive with Hydroquinone, you'll get a relatively weak developer.

Thanks for the clarification

ruilourosa · Feb 15, 2022

Didnt had sodium hidroxide on hand and tryed to dilute Kalogen with Potassium hidroxide... the solution remained cloudy then i added gram by gram another 8 grams of potassium hidroxide but it didnt clear...

is potassium hidroxide unsuitable for kalogen?

Thanks

Alan Johnson · Feb 15, 2022

If you are using the formula im post 5 you need to adjust for the differing molecular weights of NaOH [=40] and KOH [= 56]. so you will need 35 x 56 /40 = 49 g Potassium hydroxide.
It may be that the metol base has precipitated out, it is needed to dissolve it to make methylaminophenolate which is the primary developing agent.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Feb 15, 2022

Jerry's Kalogen formula uses 22.5 g of NaOH. If @ruilourosa is following Jerry's formula, then he needs to use 22.5*56/40 = 31.5 g of KOH as substitute for NaOH. But he has used 22.5 + 8 = 30.5 g of KOH. So he should try adding 1 more gram of KOH and see if it helps.

ruilourosa · Feb 16, 2022

Shouldnt i multiply the sodium amount by 0.72 if i have potassium?
Or is the other way around?

In gainer metolal i used 27,4 gr of potassium... And the precipitate dissolved...

Thanks

ruilourosa · Feb 16, 2022

Im just trying with potassium salts... :-D

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Feb 16, 2022

Original Kalogen concentrate used excess NaOH. Jerry figured out the correct amount needed for the formation of phenolates and reformulated the developer concentrate. His formula works as is requiring no modifications though the solution will be muddy till all the Hydroxide is dissolved. In your case you can add Potassium hydroxide little by little till the solution becomes clear. Make sure you don't add more than what is actually needed.

ruilourosa · Feb 16, 2022

I used the formula that specifies 22,5gr of sodium hidroxide. I consulted the conversion charts from sodium hidroxide to potassium hidroxide and i understood that i should multiply the sodium amout by 0.72, so i added to the solution 16,2 gr of potassium hidroxide. It did not clear. So i started adding, gram by gram, more 8 grams, and it was not enough... i wll continue adding... gram by gram..

is my calculation erroneous?

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Feb 16, 2022

ruilourosa said:
is my calculation erroneous?

Yes.

1 mole of NaOH = 40 g of NaOH
Therefore, 22.5 g of NaOH = 22.5/40 = 0.5625 mole of NaOH.

You want to substitute 0.5625 mole of NaOH by 0.5625 mole of KOH in the Kalogen formula.

But 1 mole of KOH = 56 g of KOH
Therefore, 0.5625 mole of KOH = 0.5625 * 56 = 31.5 g of KOH.

You need to use 31.5 g of KOH as substitute for 22.5g of NaOH.

ruilourosa · Feb 16, 2022

so... the conversion charts are wrong? in darkroom cookbook and dignan 150?
or maybe im thinking it wrong...

thanks!!!!!!!!!

Kalogen formula ?

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