KA: Kodachrome "just not practical to try to replicate in today's market."

trendland · May 4, 2018

In general : To make the most money ever, you have to see things different to all other people.
Who would have count on Bill Gates in 1966 ? " I would not lend just 10 bucks to this student" was possible the most heard sentence Bill should remember from this time (1966. ..)
So the future of Kodak isn't so bad these day's.........? It can just come better.
Every period has it's individual chances.
There is a real danger with Kodak stocks today but possible the biggest chance ever - to people who loves riscs.....
with regards
PS : I am sure in just one and a half year we can not beliefe how much the big yellow will have surprised some of us !
(and this will not happen with Kodak's final bankuptcy - no fear)

BrianShaw · May 4, 2018

Craig said:
The Italians, like all of Europe, use metric; they would have no idea what ounces are.

That’s both correct and alright. The story is that they were trying to appropriate just a bit of the Italian coffee house feel. My understanding is that it wasn’t intended to be a replica so much as just the “aura” while creating their own unique personality. Apparently they succeeded because they have lots of lovers and lots of haters too. Art...

BrianShaw · May 4, 2018

trendland said:
Sure : The market from the period where Kodakchrome was discontinued was as low as possible. Somewere of a little more around 2 percent of all Kodak E6 films. Kodak E 6 films should have had just between 7 - 8,5 percent of all Kodak films (including Bw films) at this time.
And the full sellings of films decreased from a top (in 2000/2002 somewhere around 2 - 3 billion 135 film equivalents) within less 95 percent.
If we may say Kodak had more of the half wordwide market (lets just guess 65%)
we can use simple maths :
1,8 billion Kodak 135 equivalents minus 95 % = ~ 90 million films in total/year
..........= ~ 7,2 million slide fims(8%)......
..........= ~ 144.000 Kodachromes/year....
so we may say the reason of discontinuation was : " Kodak had the need of
much more than 100.000 film sellings a year of this special film" - and don't forget the problem of investments in new K14 lab equipment at this time (main reason from my point).....
with regards

So help he puzzle through your assessment - how many rolls per year do you think the’d be selling?

BrianShaw · May 4, 2018

Agulliver said:
@trendland a huge part of the reason why I left was people like @RattyMouse who get off on being just plain nasty.

I'm calling you out @RattyMouse , you're a bully. Far too many of your contributions to this forum are bashing people, organisations and doing so from a position of ignorance and privilege.

Indeed "venti" is an Italian word. I know enough Italian to know my numbers, thank you. I know plenty of Italians and have visited the country. In Italy, "venti" has stuff all to do with coffee or size of cups. That is an invention of Starbucks, concerned with one of their cup sizes being 20 US fluid ounces....about as far away from an Italian coffee house as one can get. Starbucks names for the vast majority of their beverages and containers were invented by them, using cod Italian in some cases and are trademarked because they mean nothing to do with hot drinks.

A fluent native Italian speaker would have no more idea what Starbucks cup sizes mean than the average gibbon.

Suggestion: don’t take it either too seriously or too personally. This thread is not much more than a multidimensional recursive circle-jerk.

Helios 1984 · May 4, 2018

trendland said:
Nice question....Helios 1984 !
I would like to say (so it is just to me - but perhaps some others are with me) :
Every single variation of an Ektachrome film would be very nice. The technical issue is not as great (from the side of the manufaturing) as one may speculate.
Because Ektachrome 100 would give the basis (so as it was in the past).
But don't forget nevertheless it'll be a big investment (to reformulate on Ektachrome100 basis a second emulsion) - so the sellings of Ektachrome 100 have to be real high at first.
A Kodachrome "near" variant type of Ektachrome 100 (in regard of Kodachrome like colors) would cost not more as a reformulated Ektachrome 64 type (like the iconic Kodak EPR 64) from my point.
But at first : The colors coun't be exact the same as original Kodachrome (no problem from my point)
At second : An E6 type film can't have the stability of colors (over decades) like
the original K14 Kodachrome.
Perhaps the second issue was the main reason of Kodachrome's big success in the past. (Colors were also real nice - but this may came secondly to the Most people).
But you are quite right with your thoughts - because in a today's market technical issues would not be as great as it was in the past. Who would care on stability of emulsions to a couple of decades today ? (just out of the perspective of younger people).
The "image" of a special film would stand in the first line of marketing conceptions.
And "yes" KODAKCHROME has such special image !
with regards

Thanks for answering my question.
I hadn't thought about the stability of the emulsion, but as you said, today's film consumers probably don't care about what their slides will look in 50 years.
Now hear me out, let's say you are Kodak and you have this elusive Kodachrome III ready to roll out of the machines.
How do you market it? How do you convince people to buy it? You can't bet all your marbles on the Kodachromista chosen few, you need the hipsters, you need the cool kids, you need Mom & Pop and everybody else who enjoy vivid saturated pictures. You need your product to be easy to use, easy to scan and easy to upload on the internet. What you need your own portative Kodak scanner iOS/Android compatible with bluetooth & WiFi because your customers wants to share their beautiful pictures as soon as possible. (Yeah, that's a stretch)

RattyMouse · May 4, 2018

Agulliver said:
@trendland a huge part of the reason why I left was people like @RattyMouse who get off on being just plain nasty.

I'm calling you out @RattyMouse , you're a bully. Far too many of your contributions to this forum are bashing people, organisations and doing so from a position of ignorance and privilege.

Indeed "venti" is an Italian word. I know enough Italian to know my numbers, thank you. I know plenty of Italians and have visited the country. In Italy, "venti" has stuff all to do with coffee or size of cups. That is an invention of Starbucks, concerned with one of their cup sizes being 20 US fluid ounces....about as far away from an Italian coffee house as one can get. Starbucks names for the vast majority of their beverages and containers were invented by them, using cod Italian in some cases and are trademarked because they mean nothing to do with hot drinks.

A fluent native Italian speaker would have no more idea what Starbucks cup sizes mean than the average gibbon.

Nothing I have posted at all qualifies as bullying. Nothing. I stated that you were incorrect. And you are. You posted that Starbucks "made up" words. That is factually incorrect. You then diverted into an utterly irrelevant tangent on trademarking. That has nothing to do whatsoever as to the origin of Starbucks words nor any other word. The VAST majority of trademarked words are words that can be found in the dictionary.

faberryman · May 4, 2018

Helios 1984 said:
Thanks for answering my question.
I hadn't thought about the stability of the emulsion, but as you said, today's film consumers probably don't care about what their slides will look in 50 years.
Now hear me out, let's say you are Kodak and you have this elusive Kodachrome III ready to roll out of the machines.
How do you market it? How do you convince people to buy it? You can't bet all your marbles on the Kodachromista chosen few, you need the hipsters, you need the cool kids, you need Mom & Pop and everybody else who enjoy vivid saturated pictures. You need your product to be easy to use, easy to scan and easy to upload on the internet. What you need your own portative Kodak scanner iOS/Android compatible with bluetooth & WiFi because your customers wants to share their beautiful pictures as soon as possible.

Mom and Pop are not buying any kind of cameras. They are certainly not going to go out and buy a film camera on eBay to shoot Kodachrome. That ship sailed a long time ago. That being said, anything is possible, including the existence of Bigfoot and alien abductions.

BrianShaw · May 4, 2018

faberryman said:
Mom and Pop are not buying any kind of cameras. They are certainly not going to go out and buy a film camera on eBay to shoot Kodachrome. That ship sailed a long time ago.

It would be more productive to work on inventing a time machine.

RattyMouse · May 4, 2018

faberryman said:
Mom and Pop are not buying any kind of cameras. They are certainly not going to go out and buy a film camera on eBay to shoot Kodachrome. That ship sailed a long time ago.

Actually that ship sailed away and then sank to the bottom, resting next to the Titanic.

RattyMouse · May 4, 2018

faberryman said:
So if an Italian walked into a Starbucks and saw Grande, Venti and Trenta as coffee sizes, he would have no idea that large means large, twenty meant twenty ounces or that thirty meant thirty ounces. I think you are selling Italians short. These are not words Starbucks made up. They are real Italian words that mean large, twenty and thirty.

Ironically, Starbucks has almost no presence in Italy. I think they just opened up their first store there last year.

RattyMouse · May 4, 2018

Photo Engineer said:
Kodak stock, the original stuff vanished when the bankruptcy was resolved. Mine totally went away. The current Kodak pensions for those in the "old" Kodak now reside in a special plan "funded" somehow by EK funds. There is apparently no real back up for this fund, and it is apparently oversubscribed. That is what I meant above.

As for Kodachrome coming back.... 1) it is not a film with incorporated couplers, so I doubt if an E6 film would fit the definition of a Kodachrome film and 2) there are probably not enough customers world wide to support even one master roll of coating, and finally 3) the research machines or pilot machines cannot do justice to the quality demands that Kodak has for its films.

PE

Very sorry to hear that PE. I hope you are able to get whatever you can out of that fund. EK is in very serious financial trouble right now and that is going to get much worse next year when they must buy back all of their preferred stock at $17.50/share. That will be an enormous hit to their bottom line. I wish you very much good luck.

Helios 1984 · May 4, 2018

faberryman said:
Mom and Pop are not buying any kind of cameras. They are certainly not going to go out and buy a film camera on eBay to shoot Kodachrome. That ship sailed a long time ago. That being said, anything is possible, including the existence of Bigfoot and alien abductions.

RattyMouse said:
Actually that ship sailed away and then sank to the bottom, resting next to the Titanic.

BrianShaw said:
It would be more productive to work on inventing a time machine.

If Kodak doesn't rejuvenate its image, it will just fade away.

Photo Engineer · May 4, 2018

Kodak does not need a good cup of coffee, it needs a good flux capacitor.

PE

RattyMouse · May 4, 2018

Helios 1984 said:
If Kodak doesn't rejuvenate its image, it will just fade away.

Kodak does not have an image to rejuvenate. That's what everyone has been saying here.

Helios 1984 · May 4, 2018

RattyMouse said:
Kodak does not have an image to rejuvenate. That's what everyone has been saying here.

You made me laugh Geez that's how deep Kodak has fallen...

faberryman · May 4, 2018

Helios 1984 said:
If Kodak doesn't rejuvenate its image, it will just fade away.

Kodak who? The current generation has never bought a Kodak product, and can barely remember its batteries and VHS tapes.

Helios 1984 · May 4, 2018

faberryman said:
Kodak who? The current generation has never bought a Kodak product, and can barely remember its batteries and VHS tapes.

It's worst than what you can imagine. A few months ago, I mentioned Pentax to a friend and he asked "What is a Pentax" : /

trendland · May 4, 2018

BrianShaw said:
So help he puzzle through your assessment - how many rolls per year do you think the’d be selling?

Today we are on 1percent of the all time highest sellings. Some say 0,5 percent - some say :"Film sellings are increasing on stable basis ~ 1,5 % of the top in 2000 - 2002." The last group is more related to bw film.
Brian - let's say from general market situation : Kodak may half the numbers (or more) of last produced Kodachromes -from calculation of todays possible demand.
So we may see (that's from my point) not more that 40.000 - 50.000,- films a year
(worldwide - including Afrika, middle East....)
And from my perspective it is indeed uneconomical also if we count on 10 times higher demand.
(Kodak's press officer [with wrong information or with a bad day caused from less sleeping] spoke about calculated 10.000.000,- rolls of Ektachrome/year.)
Ok 10 Million Ektachromes (PE would be glad again) can't be the correct plan
SELLINGS A YEAR .....?
He possible meant 1 million Ektachromes
(but the failure wasn't mine - I heard it correct) - and if we speak about one million we may say : over the full period of sellings (some years from now [beginning in some month] ).
If we calculate a futures demand we may don't do this on basis of sellings and demand years ago. So everything is possible (or not) - we may have to be surpriced.
with regards
PS : Kodak had the need of min.1 million films of a special emulsion/per year for a long time ago.
But many E6 films to that time have had
less ..... (no problem if the profit came from Kodak Gold 200/400 with min. 120. million 135 rolls per quarter. ...)

RattyMouse · May 4, 2018

faberryman said:
Kodak who? The current generation has never bought a Kodak product, and can barely remember its batteries and VHS tapes.

Exactly. I asked the younger people where I work, the 20 somethings and they only know of Kodak as that company that went bankrupt. The brand name has no meaning to them whatsoever.

BrianShaw · May 4, 2018

The prediction of Ektachrome sales could not have been the result of sleep deprivation, but more like total delusional insanity. I might buy a few, and you might buy more... but I still can’t see real sales volume. I’d like for that to happen, of course, but just can’t see the possibility from just hobbies users. Even initial sales may be a bad metric... I can see good initial sales but would bet a later decline rather than increase. Holding slides up ad “oooh-ing and awwww-ing” is something just us codgers would do. If transparency had some professional usage but that, as has been said, It’s as dead as a coffin nail.

RattyMouse · May 4, 2018

BrianShaw said:
The prediction of Ektachrome sales could not have been the result of sleep deprivation, but more like total delusional insanity. I might buy a few, and you might buy more... but I still can’t see real sales volume. I’d like for that to happen, of course, but just can’t see the possibility from just hobbies users. If transparency had some professional usage but that, as has been said, I’d dead as a coffin nail.

Perhaps that is why we have not seen the film yet, nor even a hint at the release date, now 8 months behind schedule.

faberryman · May 4, 2018

I had thought that the reintroduction of still Ektachrome was predicated on the reintroduction of Super8 Etkachrome, which was predicated on the introduction of the new Super8 camera, which is years behind schedule. We have had no news on that front since CES, and even then only a mock-up was shown and no release date was suggested. I wonder if they will release one without the other.

BrianShaw · May 4, 2018

RattyMouse said:
Perhaps that is why we have not seen the film yet, nor even a hint at the release date, now 8 months behind schedule.

I waiting... an opportunity for real data on the real market for transparency film.

So far, it all seems like marketing hype and hope to me.

Theo Sulphate · May 4, 2018

Helios 1984 said:
It's worst than what you can imagine. A few months ago, I mentioned Pentax to a friend and he asked "What is a Pentax" : /

Perhaps that person does not follow photography closely, as even in the digital realm Pentax has made some very well designed cameras (such as the K-1).

Then there are Pentax optics as well, such as scopes.

Photo Engineer · May 4, 2018

If the Ektachrome film and camera do not come to market, I'll bet it will mean a hefty tax writeoff.

PE

KA: Kodachrome "just not practical to try to replicate in today's market."

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency