KA is very disappointing

RalphLambrecht · May 5, 2014

I think it's more time to get used to FP4;start some film tests and make an adjustmentto Ilford.forget Kodak;They don't care about us anymore;why should we;but keep in mind; it's partially our fault,bitching about high prices and searching for economy films doesn't helpusing and buying does;stocking up doesn't help either;it just cleans out the distribution chanels and gives falsefeelings oof security.what we need is a constant flow of demand and supply.My money is on Ilford and digital.I'd pick up watercoloring before relying on Kodak as hard as it is. I miss their products and their research papers,but nobody wants to py for that in this give-me a free-pdf-society anyway.Now, we have to face the bill for this behaviorand we'll not like it.too bad,so sad.

Roger Cole · May 5, 2014

I only stock up on things recently discontinued. Right now that's Provia 400X now that E100G has dried up.

Sent from my iPhone via Tapatalk using 100% recycled electrons. Because I care.

Jaf-Photo · May 5, 2014

Prof_Pixel said:
As a Kodak retiree (I can't believe it's been 21 years), if any of my contacts at KA were to ask me about participating on APUG, my advise would be NO. The reason? It's because of the preponderance of GOM commenters. I would suggest 'look but don't comment'.

Only key personnel are authorized to make public comments about future plans. KA has already solicited comments from photographers - and the appropriate KA people replied to them. The questions and replies have been posted on APUG in other threads.

I'm disappointed by the 'I want it now' attitude expressed by many here. The folks at KA have a daunting task ahead of them. Why not give them a break and wait a while to see what happens?

[For those unfamiliar with the abbreviation 'GOM' - it means Grumpy Old Man'.]

Well, I think there is no other way than engaging with your customer base.

Kodak was once too big to care and look where that got them.

I think there is a lot of unresolved suspicion and resentment among photographers about how Kodak mistreated their products and their customers.

If anything Alaris should work to allay those worries, but as of yet there is very little happening.

Alaris actually only has one task, to sell film. At the moment they are not as much selling it as distributing it.

It looks a bit like a slow death, which worries me, as I want to continue to shoot Kodak film.

But at the back of my mind, I am half prepared for a future without it.

Prof_Pixel · May 5, 2014

Jaf-Photo said:
Alaris actually only has one task, to sell film. At the moment they are not as much selling it as distributing it.

What ever gave you that idea? KA's main task is to figure out a long term way to survive.

SWphoto · May 5, 2014

I posted elsewhere about the 30-120% (!) increases KA announced for Japan eff. June, so won't repeat here. But those prices have to have an effect on future demand for their films.

pdeeh · May 5, 2014

Jaf-Photo said:
Alaris actually only has one task, to sell film

far from it, their business portfolio consists of much more than film, and I imagine film forms only a relatively minor part of the whole business

pdeeh · May 5, 2014

Xmas said:
We prefer a monarchy

let's be careful with "we", eh?

MDR · May 5, 2014

TheToadMen said:
You're absolutely right. Stop using Ilford, Fomapan, Adox, Fuji, ... in the US and we'll stop using Kodak in the EU. Sounds like a good deal for us EU folks ;-)
And I'll never sing that Disney tune in my head ever again: "It's a small world after all ..."
View attachment 87385

Both Mustafa and I are Europeans or at least half-european I believe there are a lot more film shooters in the US than in Europe, Ilford sells a lot of film in the US without that market no Ilford.
Personaly I hope for a global resurgence of film photography and a healthy market for all mfg.

RattyMouse · May 5, 2014

MDR said:
You want a commitment from Kodak to film well they still make it don't they actions speak louder than words imo.

If I also remember correctly they said numerous times that if someone buys it we'll make it if nobody buys we stop. So constantly bashing Kodak and moving to other mfg is not exactly the best way to have KA film in the future. As for Ilford if nobody buys their films they will stop as well.

Ilford clearly makes film for the future. Their entire existence is based on film. Kodak Alaris can either milk their film sales, without any effort, while relying on their digital products for the future. OR they can market their films in a way that gives their customers the knowledge that film is part of their heritage and will be until their last breath.

MDR · May 5, 2014

Rattymouse
A small correction they also make products for inkjet printers and digital labs so not film only. They also have patents for silverbased antimicrobials. Saying that Ilford is a film only company is really shortchanging them they are a very diverse company.

Kodak had shitty marketing for the past 20 years and unfortunately no Simon Galley who seems to be Ilfords secret marketing weapon.
I also remember how Kodak marketing persons were treated on this forum (by some very nice and by others....)

RattyMouse · May 5, 2014

MDR said:
Rattymouse
A small correction they also make products for inkjet printers and digital labs so not film only. They also have patents for silverbased antimicrobials. Saying that Ilford is a film only company is really shortchanging them they are a very diverse company.

Kodak had shitty marketing for the past 20 years and unfortunately no Simon Galley who seems to be Ilfords secret marketing weapon.
I also remember how Kodak marketing persons were treated on this forum (by some very nice and by others....)

That's just it. I never knew nor care about Ilford's non film products. With Kodak, one can never know about their film products because they never, ever market them.

I have no interest at all with Kodak being at APUG. That is a NON issue.

jonasfj · May 5, 2014

I do not agree with all the negative comments about Kodak Alaris.

Look, they offer maybe the best line of b/w and colour negative there has ever been: Tri-X, Tmax 100/400, Ektar, Portra 160/400/800. I love those films!

And D-76 and Xtol rocks!

The only thing that I miss is a slower b/w, but there's FP4+ and Pan-F+.

Kodak Aleris, keep up the good work.

Best regards,

Jonas

Skickat från min GT-P5210 via Tapatalk

omaha · May 5, 2014

RattyMouse said:
Kodak Alaris can either milk their film sales, without any effort, while relying on their digital products for the future. OR they can market their films in a way that gives their customers the knowledge that film is part of their heritage and will be until their last breath.

I fear we already know the answer to that.

None the less, there is a persistent market, small though it may be, for roll and sheet film well into the indefinite future. Whether KA finds it worthwhile to participate in that is another matter.

I agree it would be nice to see some sort of positive statement about their commitment to film, but I doubt we will. And frankly, I'm not sure it would be worth much anyway.

I remain of the opinion that the core problems here are (a) EK's production capabilities are significantly too large for today's market, (b) KA's leadership team is built around digital sales and (c) the culture that KA inherited from EK is "big company/mass market" rather than "niche company/small market".

KA's CEO wants to be CEO of a billion dollar company. I would be surprised if roll and sheet film sales in (pick a year) 2020 will be even 1% of that (wish I had some real numbers for that...just making a WAG).

Suppose roll/sheet film sales of residual KA products really are $10 million in 2020. Can EK supply the product at a price that is profitable at those volume levels? If not EK (and their current infrastructure), is it even theoretically possible to serve that revenue level and be profitable, or are there certain economies of scale that are required that would not be met? Is that enough revenue for KA to even bother with? Does KA have a perception of "goodwill value" in continuing to sell film? These are unknowns.

For me, I'll continue to buy up Portra while I can. The rest will take whatever course it takes.

Jaf-Photo · May 5, 2014

Prof_Pixel said:
What ever gave you that idea? KA's main task is to figure out a long term way to survive.

I was writing quickly as I was getting off the train, so I should clarify myself.

The only thing Alaris has to do in regard to film is sell it. They don't manufature it or engage in product development.

At the moment they aren't even promoting it, which is a big part of selling, in my book.

Alaris, seems to continue that identity crisis that we saw at the end of Kodak, where they hide film and emphasise digital. Unfortunately, no non-photographic business that I know uses Kodak business machines and nobody I know uses Kodak apps.

A much wiser move would be to acknowledge film. They can say that they still make the best film for the biggest movies and the best photographers, and do pretty mean digital solutions too.

When it comes to Alaris non-participation on apug, it is clear that Ilford has a great advantage in Simon. He will provide infomation, correct misconceptions and even take suggestions to their board.

I don't hate Kodak, I wouldn't be rude to them (unless they cancelled Portra).

I just think that they should learn from that aloof and out-of-touch attitude that cost them their empire.

On another note, it's actually easy to promote technologies that are out-dated in the public eye.

I shoot film, smoke a pipe, watch movies on a plasma screen and listen to vinyl records. That usually creates a lot of interest in people (although the pipe and the plasma are the harder sells).

The digital kids have taken to vinyl and are rediscovering film. There is clearly a life style profile to be made here.

jonasfj · May 5, 2014

Why are you guys so negative?

Kodak made some clever decisions when they streamlined their film portfolio. The b/w and color negative is top notch. Fuji had the upper hand when it comes to slide film, so they left that business, missed by few.

What I have understood, Eastman Kodak's motion picture business is highly profitable, which will ensure production capacity.

Kodak Aleris will not discontinue film as long as there is a market that generate a healthy profit.

Groet,

Jonas

Skickat från min GT-P5210 via Tapatalk

RattyMouse · May 5, 2014

Jaf-Photo said:
I was writing quickly as I was getting off the train, so I should clarify myself.

The only thing Alaris has to do in regard to film is sell it. They don't manufature it or engage in product development.

At the moment they aren't even promoting it, which is a big part of selling, in my book.

Exactly!

removed account4 · May 5, 2014

which films or products should they be advertising?

color (without the easy-infrastructure to get it processed )
or b/w ( same thing ) ??

not all people using film process their own,
and they are no longer a photofinishing business ...
maybe they should get their plans in order before they start advertising ?

Jaf-Photo · May 5, 2014

jnanian said:
which films or products should they be advertising?

color (without the easy-infrastructure to get it processed )
or b/w ( same thing ) ??

not all people using film process their own,
and they are no longer a photofinishing business ...
maybe they should get their plans in order before they start advertising ?

This is one of the points that Alaris should work on.

When I promote film to digital photographers, they say "But where can I have it developed?" The easy answer is that there is a number of places who do same day development within 15 mins distance, plus a number of web-based services where you can post film and download scans.

Clearly, highlighting and supporting that infrastructure is vital to persuade people to get into film again.

Another thing is that many people have their father's old Nikon, Pentax, Canon or Minolta in the attic, which is often optically and mechanically superior to the digital cameras the own.

RattyMouse · May 5, 2014

jnanian said:
which films or products should they be advertising?

color (without the easy-infrastructure to get it processed )
or b/w ( same thing ) ??

not all people using film process their own,
and they are no longer a photofinishing business ...
maybe they should get their plans in order before they start advertising ?

If Kodak can't answer these questions then they should just fold up shop. Ilford is doing this kind of thing, every single day.

MattKing · May 5, 2014

RattyMouse said:
If Kodak can't answer these questions then they should just fold up shop. Ilford is doing this kind of thing, every single day.

Ilford/Harman is a tiny, tiny operation in comparison to the film and paper and chemical operation that Kodak Alaris is.

And Ilford/Harman had to go through massive delays and costs and challenges when they emerged from the ashes of the collapse of Ilford Imaging.

I would expect that the most important analogue market in Kodak Alaris' focus is colour print paper, because they actually manufacture that, and because I would guess the dollar amounts of sales are much larger than still films. Unless you are in the photofinishing industry, it would be unlikely you would see any promotional efforts aimed at that market.

Fixing the distribution system, as well as ensuring the availability of processing resources are not simple or easily put in place solutions. Just look at how long it took Ilford/Harman to put in place a North American processing option.

It would be stupid to try to heavily promote film if inventory isn't easily found and processing isn't easily obtained.

If Kodak Alaris can establish a long term guarantee for supply of film product, you will be more likely to see long term film availability promises from Kodak Alaris.

AgX · May 5, 2014

RattyMouse said:
That's just it. I never knew nor care about Ilford's non film products.

Cared ignorance on a product range is no good base for comment on a manufacturer.

Pioneer · May 5, 2014

All this talk about Ilford or Kodak. I like the films that both of them produce but they certainly are not the only game in town for black and white. What about Rollei or Adox? Unlike the other two they have been trying to bring new film products to the table. I have been buying a brick of Silvermax and a brick of RPX25 every other month to support them. I like their films and I like the companies. So far the quality has been good and I have not been disappointed.

removed account4 · May 5, 2014

maybe we should just be patient and see what happens ?

Prof_Pixel · May 5, 2014

jnanian said:
maybe we should just be patient and see what happens ?

Imaging asking the people here to be patient

Ken Nadvornick · May 5, 2014

jnanian said:
maybe we should just be patient and see what happens ?

Prof_Pixel said:
Imaging asking the people here to be patient

OK, I'll bite on this one...

How long is your definition of patient?

About a quarter of the companies I've worked for have run their natural courses in less time than EK has been out of bankruptcy. Startup to midlife crisis to folding up the chairs and locking the doors.

I submit that the business world of today is almost unrecognizable from the one that existed 21 years ago. And trying to apply the patient business strategies that made sense 21 years ago is most likely a recipe for failure today.

Ken

KA is very disappointing

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency